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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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 Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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I don't mean to say that discussing different teaching methods is silly--only that "arguing" about them is silly, as there simply is no such thing as the "best" teaching method, which can be applied to all students. To be fair, I suppose the distinction between discussing and arguing is pretty blurred. In any case, I can see Kusotare's point in that too much application too fast can lead to poor performance of the kata, but I also agree with wildbourgman that not enough (or no) application can lead to a weak or useless kata performance. There has to be a balance, as with all things.
Now, with regard to Naihanchi being for internal mechanics and structure, instead of practical application, I can't agree completely. Admittedly, the Naihanchi passed down by Itosu was altered to place more of an emphasis on mechanics and structure than before--older versions have different structure and are more "flowy." That said, I'm of the opinion that EVERY kata develops body mechanics and structure, but that they do so specifically in order to support the applications. Without knowledge of the application that the mechanics and structure are supposed to facilitate, they don't serve much purpose. Mechanics and structure for their own sake exist in dance, already, for aesthetic and athletic purposes. No need for that in kata.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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wildbourgman
Orange Belt
Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 172
Location: Louisiana
Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| I don't mean to say that discussing different teaching methods is silly--only that "arguing" about them is silly. |
My wife thinks that grown men dressing up in white pajamas and pretending to fight imaginary people is silly but what does she know! 
I try not to take my self so serious as to truly argue with anyone on this site. Now I have been known to be combative on other non martial arts related forums a few years back, but I've mostly given that up.
_________________
WildBourgMan |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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The Naihanchi (Naifanchi) that I study is from Matsumura and not Itosu (although Itosu studied under Matsumura it sounds like emphasis is different), so maybe that is where the disconnect is between myself and Kosutare's views.
Wastelander and wilbourman, a balance is exactly what is needed. Kata without application is as you said, a dance. Application without Kata is mere individual self defense.
Both I feel are needed to have a whole art. The applications teach us how to deal with a given situation but the Kata's tie them all together and teach us how to move from one to the next seamlessly.
Both teach us to open our minds to possibilities outside of what we are taught and see the applications as responses not just to one scenario but how they can fit into many. The Kata also gives us a direct link to the art itself and gives us a true understanding of it. Through the Bunkai we can see the influences and what makes the Kata.
Both are necessary.
I personally feel that different views and discussions of those views in this arena are a good thing. Even if I don't agree with a view point I end up taking a little away from it. In every discussion there is a truth that can teach us and broaden our minds.
Lively debate IMHO is good for the arts. It opens us up to other ways of thinking and teaches us things that we may not have known or thought about in that way before.
I am relatively new to KF but have thoroughly enjoyed reading, learning, discussing and maybe even passing on a little knowledge to others. This is what the arts need, exposure to other arts and view points outside of our own arts. I think it's great. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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What kills me is when discussions about Kata and/or Bunkai turn into a "You're wrong!!" accusation, even when those words aren't exactly spoken. If that's the concrete base of any discussion surrounding Kata/Bunkai, then we might as well discard the entire Oyo aspect, as well as Kihon Bunkai, Kakushi Bunkai, Henka Bunkai, and Dento Bunkai; in short, Bunkai in itself.
How can I express myself honestly in Kata/Bunkai if my way is considered wrong?? Self expression, to my understanding, is also, Karate-do!! Shouldn't only I be the one to ascertain as to the Bunkai is or isn't effective??
Sure enough, we follow the traditional Bunkai as it's been given to us through our Sensei, nonetheless, if I don't seek my own Bunkai, then what good am I, if at all?!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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wildbourgman
Orange Belt
Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 172
Location: Louisiana
Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
What kills me is when discussions about Kata and/or Bunkai turn into a "You're wrong!!" accusation, even when those words aren't exactly spoken. If that's the concrete base of any discussion surrounding Kata/Bunkai, then we might as well discard the entire Oyo aspect, as well as Kihon Bunkai, Kakushi Bunkai, Henka Bunkai, and Dento Bunkai; in short, Bunkai in itself.
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I tend to agree although I can't speak from experience because I've never really been wrong about anything!
But seriously it's about what works for the individual. I've alluded to that in a previous post, I like tradition as much as the next traditionalist but it has to work for me to take it seriously. That's why I've been more and more drawn to Okinawan over Japanese martial arts as of late. My body isn't athletic enough to seriously perform Shotokan karate in a way that I think it should be performed, but also it's that I don't believe my aging body and reflexes can accomplish self-defense adequately using that system as it's been taught.
I still believe that Shotokan has it's place and has a lot to add to martial arts but for me and my situation I needed to grow as my natural abilities shrink.
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WildBourgMan |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
What kills me is when discussions about Kata and/or Bunkai turn into a "You're wrong!!" accusation, even when those words aren't exactly spoken. If that's the concrete base of any discussion surrounding Kata/Bunkai, then we might as well discard the entire Oyo aspect, as well as Kihon Bunkai, Kakushi Bunkai, Henka Bunkai, and Dento Bunkai; in short, Bunkai in itself.
How can I express myself honestly in Kata/Bunkai if my way is considered wrong?? Self expression, to my understanding, is also, Karate-do!! Shouldn't only I be the one to ascertain as to the Bunkai is or isn't effective??
Sure enough, we follow the traditional Bunkai as it's been given to us through our Sensei, nonetheless, if I don't seek my own Bunkai, then what good am I, if at all?!
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Sensei8,
I believe you have stumped me as I have never heard the term Dento Bunkai. It may be a difference of terminology (Japanese to Hogan) but would you be so kind as to explain to me the definition of this type of Bunkai? I understand it is a stage, I just do not understand what it represents.
Although we do not use this terminology I know the terminology for Kihon Bunkai, Kakushi Bunkai, and Henka Bunkai, but have never even heard the term Dento.
Hate to show my ignorance but this one has stumped me and could not find anything on Google search to help enlighten me. The closest thing I got to a description is that Den means traditional. |
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2358
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
What kills me is when discussions about Kata and/or Bunkai turn into a "You're wrong!!" accusation, even when those words aren't exactly spoken. If that's the concrete base of any discussion surrounding Kata/Bunkai, then we might as well discard the entire Oyo aspect, as well as Kihon Bunkai, Kakushi Bunkai, Henka Bunkai, and Dento Bunkai; in short, Bunkai in itself.
How can I express myself honestly in Kata/Bunkai if my way is considered wrong?? Self expression, to my understanding, is also, Karate-do!! Shouldn't only I be the one to ascertain as to the Bunkai is or isn't effective??
Sure enough, we follow the traditional Bunkai as it's been given to us through our Sensei, nonetheless, if I don't seek my own Bunkai, then what good am I, if at all?!
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Sensei8,
I believe you have stumped me as I have never heard the term Dento Bunkai. It may be a difference of terminology (Japanese to Hogan) but would you be so kind as to explain to me the definition of this type of Bunkai? I understand it is a stage, I just do not understand what it represents.
Although we do not use this terminology I know the terminology for Kihon Bunkai, Kakushi Bunkai, and Henka Bunkai, but have never even heard the term Dento.
Hate to show my ignorance but this one has stumped me and could not find anything on Google search to help enlighten me. The closest thing I got to a description is that Den means traditional. |
Admittely I haven't heard of Dento, Kakushi & Henka Bunkai either. However from a quick google search and landing on Iain Abernethy's website this is what I found which was posted in response to a similar question you just asked and I am qouting it exactly as what it said by a person called Holger:
| Quote: |
Henka means change, variation or diversion. So here you change the Omote form of a technique. For example when there is a Tsuki-technique to Chudan level you simply change the level to Jodan or Gedan. When a close fist was used you try a palm heel or whatever. You start to apply a motion that looks like a thrust to not just punch but to lock or throw and so on. In this stage you can identify further principles. For me that also means to look at older version of a certain Kata and/or how this Kata is practised in other styles .
Okuden is from the Menkyo grading system of the older japanese martial arts often refered to as Koryu Budo (oposite to the Gendai Budo - the modern martial arts). Back then there was no Kyudan system for grading people. No colored belts and stuff. This menkyo system was not standartized and every school had a slightly different system. One example is the following one.
Shoden - the beginning stage Chuden - the middle stage Okuden - the stage of deeper understanding Menkyo Kaiden - the teaching license
Some also use Kakushi (Bunkai, Oyo, Henka, Kakushi) which means hidden. That is were the magic is happening often associated with dubious stuff like Chi a strange use and mystification of pressure points and so on.
All those terms are thrown arround totally out of context most of the time. So don't let them confuse you. Not everthing needs an oriental name in my eyes. The funny thing about technical terms in any field is that everybody understands them differently and when people start to use them in conversations the are getting deluded into thinking that they are talking about the same things were in fact they are sometimes being at cross purposes.
So for me there is the analysing part (Bunkai/Bunseki) and then there is the practical part (Oyo). When you can apply a technique superficially only in a certain situation it is Omote and when you understand the principles an you can apply them in any situation that is Ura. |
If you would like to check where i got it: https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/different-terms-used-bunkai
Also another good link that might help: https://books.google.com.au/books?id=wrNAfgmdcRkC&pg=PT200&lpg=PT200&dq=Dento+Bunkai&source=bl&ots=ye46UVI13U&sig=9TJ-UZ6lzBTtUGYn5DAE4z0nPk8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiB-PKK9pXRAhWDU7wKHXfVDJ8Q6AEIPzAG#v=onepage&q=Dento%20Bunkai&f=false |
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LeighSimmsMA
Yellow Belt
Joined: 10 Apr 2015
Posts: 37
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
What kills me is when discussions about Kata and/or Bunkai turn into a "You're wrong!!" accusation, even when those words aren't exactly spoken. If that's the concrete base of any discussion surrounding Kata/Bunkai, then we might as well discard the entire Oyo aspect, as well as Kihon Bunkai, Kakushi Bunkai, Henka Bunkai, and Dento Bunkai; in short, Bunkai in itself.
How can I express myself honestly in Kata/Bunkai if my way is considered wrong?? Self expression, to my understanding, is also, Karate-do!! Shouldn't only I be the one to ascertain as to the Bunkai is or isn't effective??
Sure enough, we follow the traditional Bunkai as it's been given to us through our Sensei, nonetheless, if I don't seek my own Bunkai, then what good am I, if at all?!
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Hi sensei8,
Good post above.
I don't think that anyone can judge your own personal expression of kata bunkai except yourself.
Can I ask the question as to what you mean by effective bunkai?
_________________
www.leighsimms.com |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Nidan Melbourne wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
What kills me is when discussions about Kata and/or Bunkai turn into a "You're wrong!!" accusation, even when those words aren't exactly spoken. If that's the concrete base of any discussion surrounding Kata/Bunkai, then we might as well discard the entire Oyo aspect, as well as Kihon Bunkai, Kakushi Bunkai, Henka Bunkai, and Dento Bunkai; in short, Bunkai in itself.
How can I express myself honestly in Kata/Bunkai if my way is considered wrong?? Self expression, to my understanding, is also, Karate-do!! Shouldn't only I be the one to ascertain as to the Bunkai is or isn't effective??
Sure enough, we follow the traditional Bunkai as it's been given to us through our Sensei, nonetheless, if I don't seek my own Bunkai, then what good am I, if at all?!
|
Sensei8,
I believe you have stumped me as I have never heard the term Dento Bunkai. It may be a difference of terminology (Japanese to Hogan) but would you be so kind as to explain to me the definition of this type of Bunkai? I understand it is a stage, I just do not understand what it represents.
Although we do not use this terminology I know the terminology for Kihon Bunkai, Kakushi Bunkai, and Henka Bunkai, but have never even heard the term Dento.
Hate to show my ignorance but this one has stumped me and could not find anything on Google search to help enlighten me. The closest thing I got to a description is that Den means traditional. |
Admittely I haven't heard of Dento, Kakushi & Henka Bunkai either. However from a quick google search and landing on Iain Abernethy's website this is what I found which was posted in response to a similar question you just asked and I am qouting it exactly as what it said by a person called Holger:
| Quote: |
Henka means change, variation or diversion. So here you change the Omote form of a technique. For example when there is a Tsuki-technique to Chudan level you simply change the level to Jodan or Gedan. When a close fist was used you try a palm heel or whatever. You start to apply a motion that looks like a thrust to not just punch but to lock or throw and so on. In this stage you can identify further principles. For me that also means to look at older version of a certain Kata and/or how this Kata is practised in other styles .
Okuden is from the Menkyo grading system of the older japanese martial arts often refered to as Koryu Budo (oposite to the Gendai Budo - the modern martial arts). Back then there was no Kyudan system for grading people. No colored belts and stuff. This menkyo system was not standartized and every school had a slightly different system. One example is the following one.
Shoden - the beginning stage Chuden - the middle stage Okuden - the stage of deeper understanding Menkyo Kaiden - the teaching license
Some also use Kakushi (Bunkai, Oyo, Henka, Kakushi) which means hidden. That is were the magic is happening often associated with dubious stuff like Chi a strange use and mystification of pressure points and so on.
All those terms are thrown arround totally out of context most of the time. So don't let them confuse you. Not everthing needs an oriental name in my eyes. The funny thing about technical terms in any field is that everybody understands them differently and when people start to use them in conversations the are getting deluded into thinking that they are talking about the same things were in fact they are sometimes being at cross purposes.
So for me there is the analysing part (Bunkai/Bunseki) and then there is the practical part (Oyo). When you can apply a technique superficially only in a certain situation it is Omote and when you understand the principles an you can apply them in any situation that is Ura. |
If you would like to check where i got it: https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/different-terms-used-bunkai
Also another good link that might help: https://books.google.com.au/books?id=wrNAfgmdcRkC&pg=PT200&lpg=PT200&dq=Dento+Bunkai&source=bl&ots=ye46UVI13U&sig=9TJ-UZ6lzBTtUGYn5DAE4z0nPk8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiB-PKK9pXRAhWDU7wKHXfVDJ8Q6AEIPzAG#v=onepage&q=Dento%20Bunkai&f=false |
Thank you Nidan Melbourne.
We do not use any of these terms but I have heard all of them used in other schools I have studied in except Dento. I appreciate the help. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| LeighSimmsMA wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
What kills me is when discussions about Kata and/or Bunkai turn into a "You're wrong!!" accusation, even when those words aren't exactly spoken. If that's the concrete base of any discussion surrounding Kata/Bunkai, then we might as well discard the entire Oyo aspect, as well as Kihon Bunkai, Kakushi Bunkai, Henka Bunkai, and Dento Bunkai; in short, Bunkai in itself.
How can I express myself honestly in Kata/Bunkai if my way is considered wrong?? Self expression, to my understanding, is also, Karate-do!! Shouldn't only I be the one to ascertain as to the Bunkai is or isn't effective??
Sure enough, we follow the traditional Bunkai as it's been given to us through our Sensei, nonetheless, if I don't seek my own Bunkai, then what good am I, if at all?!
|
Hi sensei8,
Good post above.
I don't think that anyone can judge your own personal expression of kata bunkai except yourself.
Can I ask the question as to what you mean by effective bunkai? |
To the bold type above...
That which has saved me!!
If I may tell this small analysis as to what that means to me...
If I was drowning in the ocean, and I'd already gone down a second time, and was about to go down for the third and last time, and an inner-tube floated by me, and saved my life, I'd kiss an inner-tube for the rest of my life. In this analysis, that inner-tube, for that very moment, was effective because it saved me.
If IT worked/works, then, for that very moment, it's effective!! Bunkai is that open window for me to peer though at the many possibilities that might be discovered. What's effective for me, might not be effective for someone else!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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on the post.
