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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 12676
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:52 am Post subject: |
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I think the point that you are making about competition minded grappling in self-defense is right on target, Cross. I would want to use my grappling experience to work into superior position and get back to my feet as quickly as possible. It is the mindset that is important. If you get a "gift" given to you at the time, in the form of an arm that is locked, controlling or breaking it may be what you want to do with it.
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1696
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| cross wrote: |
having solid basic defensive techniques that cover a number of attacks is far more benificial and will provide greater protection in a situation.
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Its not that i think all grappling is ineffective. Just the "take it to the ground, pull guard and go for the armbar" mindset that is seen throughout alot of schools. Ive always agreed that grappling and groundfighting is a crucial part of self defense, just how its trained and the emphasis might be different.
Thanks again for the reply, you raise some very interesting points. |
I agree 100% with everything here. Especially if the only reason a person practices is for self defense. A small number of techniques (movements/habits) that cover a broad number of situations is best. It gives them less to choose from in an actual defense situation, which can often be a problem.
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PSBN Doug
KF VIP
Joined: 04 Nov 2001
Posts: 3754
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Kuk Sool Won
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe I read through this too quick and missed it, but who ever said submissions and chokes had to be done from the ground?
This is just my philosophy, but if I have 1v1, I'd much rather subdue by either joint lock or choke rather than have to strike them into submission. That of course could be done either from standing or on the ground.
Now if we have multiple attackers, I agree that you don't want to intentionally take it to the ground. But there are plenty of holds/chokes where you could neutralize one attacker quickly, and turn your attention to the next. Perhaps a choke wouldn't work fast enough, unless you could keep separation from the others for the 3-5 seconds you need to choke out the first. But as bushido stated, any joint lock is about an inch or less away from a crippling joint break. So I'd have to say that these are still worth while techniques to acquire.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 12676
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| PSBN Doug wrote: |
| Maybe I read through this too quick and missed it, but who ever said submissions and chokes had to be done from the ground? |
Very good point. I agree, and if you know how to apply these on the ground, then you have probably learned standing variations as well.
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dete
Orange Belt
Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 138
Location: gotham city
Styles: full contact Karate and grappling
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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if the ground is the worst place to be in a street fight, it is nice to know that your comfortable in there. Then the other places don't seem as bad 
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DokterVet
Green Belt
Joined: 05 Aug 2002
Posts: 442
Location: Ontario, Canada
Styles: Shootwrestling
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Here's something that I don't think has been brought up:
Someone I work with is the co-owner of a nightclub in the heart of the clubbing district of Toronto (Richmond St.) This area is known for being absolutely packed with drunk people on the street (you wouldn't believe how many if you haven't been there). He sees more than one fight on the street every single night. Up to maybe four or five. That's hundreds, maybe up to a thousand street fights per year.
According to him, a few years ago, most people fought like hockey fighters (grabbing the collar and punching, trying to pull the shirt over the head), or went for a side headlock and punched from there.
In the past few years, he says, that has completely changed. In virtually every fight at least one fighter's strategy is to shoot in for a takedown, go straight to mount and punch from there.
The popularity of MMA has effected self-defense, because it has affected the way a typical street fighter will attack you.
So even if you didn't think grappling was necessary for self-defense in 1992, you cannot deny that it is an absolute must now.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 12676
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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Those are some interesting observations, DokterVet. Being able to experience something like that first hand must have its advantages, even if you just watch.
I guess I am not surprised that takedowns have become popular. Around the area where I grew up, we had a lot of Wrestlers around, so I always figured a takedown or grab and restrain would be pretty standard, anyway.
Even your friend's observation of the "hockey attack" that you described shows how getting contact and restraining/clinching someone can help you to control a fight.
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1696
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| DokterVet wrote: |
Here's something that I don't think has been brought up:
Someone I work with is the co-owner of a nightclub in the heart of the clubbing district of Toronto (Richmond St.) This area is known for being absolutely packed with drunk people on the street (you wouldn't believe how many if you haven't been there). He sees more than one fight on the street every single night. Up to maybe four or five. That's hundreds, maybe up to a thousand street fights per year.
According to him, a few years ago, most people fought like hockey fighters (grabbing the collar and punching, trying to pull the shirt over the head), or went for a side headlock and punched from there.
In the past few years, he says, that has completely changed. In virtually every fight at least one fighter's strategy is to shoot in for a takedown, go straight to mount and punch from there.
The popularity of MMA has effected self-defense, because it has affected the way a typical street fighter will attack you.
So even if you didn't think grappling was necessary for self-defense in 1992, you cannot deny that it is an absolute must now. |
This is an excellent anthropological observation! I would agree that most people will attempt to emulate what they see used most often in any given situation. Assuming, of course, that the particular action seemed to be effective. With the recent popularity of MMA, it's not surprising that many people are attempting to utilize its techniques.
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JJOdin
White Belt
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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I think that pretty much all of the martial arts, grappling included, can be beneficial depending on the situation you have at hand. You wouldn't want to grapple on the road for any significant length of time, especially from your back (and you wouldn't want to hit the road at all with multiple attackers). By the same token, the guy you might be fighting may be a better striker than you and the surface could be grass, etc.
Ground control and positioning- including takedowns- is always important. And I've seen submissions work first hand in real situations. So that's my opinion, for what it's worth.
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lupus yonderboy
Yellow Belt
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 69
Location: St. Louis MO
Styles: MMA - Boxing, Judo, Jits, Greco, Folk Wrestling
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Value of grappling arts for self defense? |
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| cross wrote: |
Im interested in getting some opinions on which specific aspects of various grappling arts (bjj, wresting, judo etc) you believe are applicable and beneficial for those interested in self defense.
I consider the positioning and control withing grappling range to be one of the main benefits(if trained within the right context).
Submissions and chokes im not so sure on however.
Thanks,
Cross. |
All aspects of the grappling arts are applicable and beneficial if you find yourself on the ground in a self defense situation.
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St. Louis MO MMA Training Club - Fight Club in St. Louis MO for training MMA Boxing and Wrestling Technique |
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on the post.
