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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1859
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:52 am Post subject: Value of grappling arts for self defense? |
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Im interested in getting some opinions on which specific aspects of various grappling arts (bjj, wresting, judo etc) you believe are applicable and beneficial for those interested in self defense.
I consider the positioning and control withing grappling range to be one of the main benefits(if trained within the right context).
Submissions and chokes im not so sure on however.
Thanks,
Cross. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 12059
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with the positioning and controling aspects of BJJ being useful for self-defense. If you get taken down, then it is important to know how to get back to your feet (not necessarily to continue to roll, though). The takedowns and throws of Judo and Wrestling would also be good knowledge, along with the takedown defenses of Wrestling. Greco-Roman Wrestling would be beneficial for the clinch-like upper body work that it used.
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Success is where preparation meets opportunity.
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pineapple
Black Belt
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 1037
Location: Hawaii
Styles: Kajukenbo
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Submissions and chokes are important to learn as part of your overall knowledge of self defense. Even if you prefer being a striker, you need to know what your opponent is trying to do to you, otherwise it will be easy for him to get you in a submission hold or choke and on the street, there is no referee to break the hold.
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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1859
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| pineapple wrote: |
| Submissions and chokes are important to learn as part of your overall knowledge of self defense. Even if you prefer being a striker, you need to know what your opponent is trying to do to you, otherwise it will be easy for him to get you in a submission hold or choke and on the street, there is no referee to break the hold. |
I agree that knowing your enemy is a huge part of preparation for self protection. However submissions and chokes would be a very small part of the total picture(if a part at all).
Knowing how to deal with(not just physically, but behaviorally) people who use weapons and fight in packs who want to sucker punch you and then stomp you while your laying on the ground, or the mugger who wants to hold you at knife/gun point, the rapist who wants your body or the trouble maker at the bar who wants to draw you into a ego battle so he has a reason to sucker punch you or hit you with a glass while your walking away is far, far more important and relevant than learning how to escape any submission hold or choke that you might see on the mat of a grappling school.
Within the context of real world situations, the chance you will face a choke or submission is slim to none. Sure, a basic understanding or the positions and how to escape is useful and should be a part of training, but anything beyond that would be overkill imo.
Certainly the positioning and control of your attacker is very important to understand and train. Also performing and defending against ground and pound style attacks. But submissions? Is the guy trying to beat your brains out with a baseball bat going to armbar you? Is the mugger holding you up with a knife going to double-leg and then guillotine? Is the rapist going to pass guard and go for a kimura? Is the punk at the bar who bumps into you going to shoot and look for a submission? |
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1674
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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I think that, overall, the familiarity with being on the ground is a great psychological advantage if you end up there.
I would say that chokes are certainly more effective than any other submissions. The reason for that is they can completely incapacitate the attacker. It takes only a few seconds for a properly applied choke to work. The second types of effective submissions would be kneebars, ankle locks, toe holds and heel hooks. This is because they are performed at distance from the opponents grip and leave the opponent with a very limited capacity for movement afterward.
As you've already mentioned, the understanding and ability to gain superior position is the most important thing. That's why there's the saying, "Position before submission." As Bushido mentioned, knowing how to get up is important as well.
From the wrestling standpoint: knowing how to defend being taken down is important. It develops an excellent base.
Of course, the reason any of it is effective is because it's all practiced at 100% effort.
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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1859
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ps1 wrote: |
| I would say that chokes are certainly more effective than any other submissions. The reason for that is they can completely incapacitate the attacker. It takes only a few seconds for a properly applied choke to work. |
In ideal circumstances it might take 2-3 seconds to work, but in realistically it would probably take alot longer with a setup, then struggling to sink it in etc. And that assumes you sink it correctly. All time that you could be getting stomped by his friends, allowing him to pull a weapon if your commiting both hands/arms to the choke, or you could spend it doing something else like getting up, or striking to cause pain/compliance instantly.
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| The second types of effective submissions would be kneebars, ankle locks, toe holds and heel hooks. This is because they are performed at distance from the opponents grip and leave the opponent with a very limited capacity for movement afterward. |
In a high danger situation, perhaps. If you have the presence of mind and finesse to pull those off, then i can see how they would work. But consider a bar fight, does it really warrent causing ligament damage or breaking bones? Or a group attack, or 1 guy with a weapon, do you have the time, situational positioning to perform such a technique? When you could be getting back up and increasing your chances of escaping? |
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NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 981
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:58 am Post subject: |
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1v1 or odds against you? Of course, you unfortunately can never tell usually (why can;t troublemakers tell you beforehand eh?)- however I definitely do agree that there are some moves better set for the ring and others better for real life. For real life grappling- wrestling and judo take downs, plus certainly judo throws are really, really nice (I love throws). Standing grappling while difficult to pull off, might be good too, like from JJJ (again, only if the window of opportunity is there, many times something else might be easier). Of course you wouldn't to keep them in the hold- you'd want to go through with it quick and fast so you can get the break and move off. Bjj is great if you have some lone guy jump you or get into a small scuffle, however the longer you are on the ground, the more you run the risk of getting a boot to the head...pulling guard is usually best saved for the mat. On the other hand, bouncers and security have used ground grappling VERY effectively but usually they have the advantage of numbers. All in all the best thing to take away from BJJ for SD is knowing how to handle the ground but most importantly get in a position of dominance so you can get OFF the ground. As for chokes...if you are applying it then keep out a sharp eye! Here's some demonstrations but they are applied under ideal conditions:
http://submissions101.com/chokes20.htm
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NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 981
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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oh and as for guys with weapons- pretty much disarming is grappling isn't it? Mind, the moment you have to disarm it means that you should have left earlier/ looked for his hands going for the weapon but....if you can control the hand perhaps you could do an americana? That's a big if though.
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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1859
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| NightOwl wrote: |
| oh and as for guys with weapons- pretty much disarming is grappling isn't it? Mind, the moment you have to disarm it means that you should have left earlier/ looked for his hands going for the weapon but....if you can control the hand perhaps you could do an americana? That's a big if though. |
Disarming is controlling the weapon hand and hitting the guy until he is no longer can do anything and is no longer holding the weapon. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 12059
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| cross wrote: |
| pineapple wrote: |
| Submissions and chokes are important to learn as part of your overall knowledge of self defense. Even if you prefer being a striker, you need to know what your opponent is trying to do to you, otherwise it will be easy for him to get you in a submission hold or choke and on the street, there is no referee to break the hold. |
I agree that knowing your enemy is a huge part of preparation for self protection. However submissions and chokes would be a very small part of the total picture(if a part at all).
Knowing how to deal with(not just physically, but behaviorally) people who use weapons and fight in packs who want to sucker punch you and then stomp you while your laying on the ground, or the mugger who wants to hold you at knife/gun point, the rapist who wants your body or the trouble maker at the bar who wants to draw you into a ego battle so he has a reason to sucker punch you or hit you with a glass while your walking away is far, far more important and relevant than learning how to escape any submission hold or choke that you might see on the mat of a grappling school.
Within the context of real world situations, the chance you will face a choke or submission is slim to none. Sure, a basic understanding or the positions and how to escape is useful and should be a part of training, but anything beyond that would be overkill imo.
Certainly the positioning and control of your attacker is very important to understand and train. Also performing and defending against ground and pound style attacks. But submissions? Is the guy trying to beat your brains out with a baseball bat going to armbar you? Is the mugger holding you up with a knife going to double-leg and then guillotine? Is the rapist going to pass guard and go for a kimura? Is the punk at the bar who bumps into you going to shoot and look for a submission? |
What you are describing here are various scenarios, all of which may start like you say, but can lead in any number of directions.
I know that you do a lot of scenario-based training, and I agree that it is important. I also think that grappling in general can add to the scenario-based attacks that you train, just as much as you would add punches, kicks, knees, gouges, etc. Remember that submissions can be turned into breaks very easily in most cases. It is simply a matter of going an inch farther in execution.
I also agree that on the street you don't want to wrestle with anyone for too long; just the same as you don't want to dance with them any longer than you have to. But if you are using your grappling skills to get off of the ground, and you end up with a guy in an arm lock along the way, you can snap that arm, and the training has served you well.
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Success is where preparation meets opportunity.
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on the post.
