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Espina
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 157

Styles: Kyokushin, Ashihara, Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timm, I'm sure you have seen a lot of Katas... there's no way you wouldn't recognize a traditional Kata from a "modern" one.

Could you please tell me what you think are the main differences between traditional katas and modern ones?
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30167
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grego wrote:
supposedly these Kata were actually modeled after real fights.

I think it was a way to teach martial arts by disguising them as dance. *shrugs*

Anyways, my sensei created his own kata. It was based on a fight he got into when he was a bouncer


From what I have seen and read, the katas were used to codify fighting concepts, techniques, etc., for transmission to others. I've read a bit from Abernethy, so thats the side of it that I see.
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Traymond
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Posts: 997
Location: Michigan
Styles: Sensei of Brasshand Style, but practicioner of many

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Espina wrote:
Timm, I'm sure you have seen a lot of Katas... there's no way you wouldn't recognize a traditional Kata from a "modern" one.

Could you please tell me what you think are the main differences between traditional katas and modern ones?


Well at times its hard. Like if you take the shotokan/ other martial arts but differant name Kata such as the Taihokyu (Aka Taikyokyu). Its a series of Low block and punch traditionally you would punch to the solar plexus, but in Taihokyu (one that is older but usually modified to be modern), they punch to the stomach.

So you have to have a really keen eye to see modernizations in Kata that has been modified.

Now when you look at a kata such as Karumpha from the Kajukenpo Style, it is extremely modern because you see traits of Goju and Shotokan hidden in the style. We do like 6-7 jodan juji uke's and palm heel strikes. So it is extremely modern, I have only seen a handful of traditional katas that incorporate more than two juji uke.

And their are other smaller ways of telling, but just look at the movements and figure out if its a kata or a pattern.
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ShawnJ
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 42
Location: Florida
Styles: Shorin-Ryu Karate USA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shorin-Ryu USA :

Fukyugata Ichi
Fukyugata Ni
Fukyugata San
Pinan Shodan
Pinan Nidan
Pinan Sandan
Pinan Yondan
Pinan Godan
Naihanchi Shodan
Naihanchi Nidan

I need to learn Ananku before I can test for Black Belt.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30167
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Traymond wrote:
And their are other smaller ways of telling, but just look at the movements and figure out if its a kata or a pattern.


Is there a difference? I always understood that pattern and kata were essentially the same thing. Like using the word "form."
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Traymond
Pre-Black Belt
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Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Posts: 997
Location: Michigan
Styles: Sensei of Brasshand Style, but practicioner of many

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Traymond wrote:
And their are other smaller ways of telling, but just look at the movements and figure out if its a kata or a pattern.


Is there a difference? I always understood that pattern and kata were essentially the same thing. Like using the word "form."



A pattern to most "extreme" traditional Martial artists, is an insulting way of talking about a kata, because a pattern has no life, while kata needs life breathed into it.
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armanox
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 326
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Hapkido, Aikido

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's see....I had a thread on this a long time ago...

Empty hand:
Kihon I-V (and the three formerly known as I-III)
Fuku I-II
Naihaichi I-III
Pinan I-V
Passai (Sho and Dai)
Kusanku (Sho and Dai)
Seisan
Tensho

Kobudo:
Sai Ichi no Kata
Sai Ni no Kata
Maezato no nunchaku
Gyosho no kun

ZNKR Iaido:
Mae
Ushiro
Ukenagashi
Tsuka-ate
Shihogiri

So...Twenty-four(24) empty handed, four (4) Okinawan Kobudo, and five (5) ZNKR Iaido.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30167
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Traymond wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
Traymond wrote:
And their are other smaller ways of telling, but just look at the movements and figure out if its a kata or a pattern.


Is there a difference? I always understood that pattern and kata were essentially the same thing. Like using the word "form."



A pattern to most "extreme" traditional Martial artists, is an insulting way of talking about a kata, because a pattern has no life, while kata needs life breathed into it.


To me, it was all the same: kata=pattern=form=hyung, etc. In many TKD schools, the forms are referred to as patterns. We obviously don't use the term kata, simply because it is a Japanese term, but the Korean equivalent is the word hyung, and the English equivalent would be form or pattern. I have never heard of the exclusivity of any of the terms before. But hey, to each his own.
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DWx
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Traymond wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
Traymond wrote:
And their are other smaller ways of telling, but just look at the movements and figure out if its a kata or a pattern.


Is there a difference? I always understood that pattern and kata were essentially the same thing. Like using the word "form."



A pattern to most "extreme" traditional Martial artists, is an insulting way of talking about a kata, because a pattern has no life, while kata needs life breathed into it.


To me, it was all the same: kata=pattern=form=hyung, etc. In many TKD schools, the forms are referred to as patterns. We obviously don't use the term kata, simply because it is a Japanese term, but the Korean equivalent is the word hyung, and the English equivalent would be form or pattern. I have never heard of the exclusivity of any of the terms before. But hey, to each his own.

Our school almost exclusively uses the term "pattern" or we sometimes use the Korean "tul" instead. Its the same thing to me, whatever word is used.
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Fish
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 342
Location: London UK
Styles: Wado Ryu

PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pinan 1 to 5
Kushanku
Seienchin (the shito-ryu version, although I study wado)
Bassai-Dai
Gojushiho
Naihanchi
Niseishi
Seishan
Wanshu

I'm studying Seishan at the moment - nice kata!
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