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highkick
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 13 Oct 2016
Posts: 3
Location: New Mexico
Styles: WTF Taekwondo

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:16 pm    Post subject: when a student gets into a fight in school Reply with quote

Hi, so I teach a small class at a teen center with at-risk/high risk teens. The class has been going on for about a year. There is a very strong fight culture in the schools where I live. One of my students was attacked at school for accidentally bumping into a guy and later he saw said guy talking with friends after school (about him presumably), he rushed at them but a friend held him back (and then was punched in the face a couple times). I'm not sure how to go about disciplining him.
He didn't start that first fight, but did go after the kid with the intention of fighting him later. It should also be noted that I don't really have much parent/guardian involvement with these kids, which can make discipline a little harder since they are teenagers and have figured out that I can't literally force them to do something. This student is a very dedicated student, who loves the class, but is also a teenage boy who well, does stupid teenager stuff.

Also the class is really small right now, with maybe 4 kids on a good day. So if I ban him from sparring for a few weeks then it might limit the others for sparring. Any ideas? Sometimes it's really hard as a female to understand and get through to teenage boys...
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 5627
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure I would discipline him per se. I'm not sure what your remit is at the teen center but as you say, you're not his parent or guardian.

Personally I wouldn't discipline him by banning him from sparring as it would make him resent you rather than actually stopping him from fighting again. Have a chat with him maybe about your expectations but it sounds as though he isn't deliberately going around starting fights but a stupid teenager letting his emotions get the better of him.
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highkick
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 13 Oct 2016
Posts: 3
Location: New Mexico
Styles: WTF Taekwondo

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've talked with all of them on several occasions about my expectations as far as fighting goes. The trouble is how fighting for them equals power, equals respect. I'm also trying to emphasize that what you do in the other parts of your life impact you in TKD, and if he hadn't been held back, he would have been fighting the guy. So just because nothing happened does that mean that his intentions shouldn't be taken seriously?
Maybe a warning, but next time he doesn't get to test?
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DWx
KF Sensei
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 5627
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

highkick wrote:
I've talked with all of them on several occasions about my expectations as far as fighting goes. The trouble is how fighting for them equals power, equals respect. I'm also trying to emphasize that what you do in the other parts of your life impact you in TKD, and if he hadn't been held back, he would have been fighting the guy. So just because nothing happened does that mean that his intentions shouldn't be taken seriously?
Maybe a warning, but next time he doesn't get to test?

Maybe that would work. He'd still be learning and taking part but would have a punishment.

Do you teach them what they should do instead of fighting?
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Alan Armstrong
Red Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 780


PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the student is learning TKD martial arts as a sport, I don't see why there is any need for him to be disciplined.

A teen will fight no matter what the recreational sport they participate in.

Not everything warrants punishment, maybe the boy was embarrassed from the initial confrontation.

Perhaps just listening and understanding his point of view would be a chance to give him some gentle advice for any future altercations.

Or perhaps suggesting channeling aggression in a positive way (during ma training) will improve his performance in TKD.

One of my TKD instructor's was female. She told me a story about her and her teenager son. While sparing she hit him a little too hard. He became mad at her started crying and said "mummy you hurt me" this happened during a class.

The son never expected for his mum to hit him so hard; he was feeling angry for being (accidentally) unfairly punished.


Last edited by Alan Armstrong on Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 12235
Location: Houston, TX and/or Van Nuys, CA
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Appears to me that within his culture, where he lives, he's going to be expected to fight more often than not. Otherwise, he's labeled as both a target and a coward. A very sensitive matter, for sure. One that will require some kid gloves.

Threatening, in this matter, might backfire one way or another, no matter the type of threat in the hopes of disciplining said student(s). And because the parents have the authority to effect change, and a MA instructor doesn't, unless the instructor is the parent of said student, that tree that one will be barking up and at, will be a possible waste of time in the long run.

If it was me, I'd give one warning, and if it happens again, I'd expel him indefinitely!! Why?? Those actions aren't tolerated, and they are far from what the MA should be teaching. The weapon, the MAist, must be tempered, and not allowed to wander at the first whimsical notion. What the MA provides can be used for good or for bad, either must be decided by the individual on each basis.

Both public and private schools don't tolerate fighting on their campuses, for great reasons, and when it does occur, sanctions and the like are handed out with a terrible resolve. Get in a fight at work, that employee is terminated, for the most part!! If your school doesn't tolerate that type of behavior, then you must deal with it before it deals with you!!

And if expelling this student tips the balance of sparring partners, than so be it!! Sometimes, one has to be sacrificed for the good of the students as well as the school as well as the instructor.



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Alan Armstrong
Red Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 780


PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a ma student (female) teen that was threatened by a boy in school. She swiftly floored him.

This is what I have trained her to do; as I was teaching her martial arts with JKD concepts.

The boy's parents and the boy had a meeting with the girl and the girl's parents, in the principles office.

The meeting took only a few minute to resolve.
With the principle laughing, all the while as how the boy explained how she beat him up.

The girl being petite and the boy was just a big bully sissy. He was twice her size and weight.

The boy was warned not to behave threatening towards other students.

There is no way of knowing all the facts of who is wrong and who is right in minor infractions with teens.

Hopefully the boy has become less threatening towards others and the girl is less threatened by those that are far bigger then her.

Us oldies were no angels growing up. We were back in our days (where I was from) no better than the teens of today; in many respects far worse than most.

It is hoped that the teens of today are more intelligent than the teens of the past and are guided by better informed responsible adult roll models.
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Spartacus Maximus
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Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1239

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teaching martial arts should be adapted to the students age group and their particular level of physical and mental development. Teenagers naturally much more impulsive than adults.

Their mental capacities for judgment and reasoning are not yet fully developed. What will appear trivial or unreasonable to an adult mind often is interpreted very differently by a teenage one. This is why teaching them requires strict discipline with rules clearly defined and often repeated. Consequences must be immediate and final whenever applying them is required. However, individual characters and personalities should be considered, as well as the details of each side of a situation.

With all this in mind, the use of martial arts skills outside training for reasons other than defense of self or others from a direct and unavoidable imminent violence is a very serious matter. The only suitable consequence is immediate expulsion
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tallgeese
KF Sensei
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Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6604
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
I'm not sure I would discipline him per se. I'm not sure what your remit is at the teen center but as you say, you're not his parent or guardian.

Personally I wouldn't discipline him by banning him from sparring as it would make him resent you rather than actually stopping him from fighting again. Have a chat with him maybe about your expectations but it sounds as though he isn't deliberately going around starting fights but a stupid teenager letting his emotions get the better of him.


I'm with this. It's teenage stuff. I wouldn't worry about it.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 12235
Location: Houston, TX and/or Van Nuys, CA
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tallgeese wrote:
DWx wrote:
I'm not sure I would discipline him per se. I'm not sure what your remit is at the teen center but as you say, you're not his parent or guardian.

Personally I wouldn't discipline him by banning him from sparring as it would make him resent you rather than actually stopping him from fighting again. Have a chat with him maybe about your expectations but it sounds as though he isn't deliberately going around starting fights but a stupid teenager letting his emotions get the better of him.


I'm with this. It's teenage stuff. I wouldn't worry about it.

So, you both condone it?? Expectations, seem to me, are not being meet. Age, shouldn't excuse the unwanted actions of students. Allow one, you have to allow others, and this is a pot being stirred until it overflows.

Imho!!



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