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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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 Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:22 am Post subject: A common question |
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Here is a question often asked in martial arts, especially to instructors:
“How do you know a technique works if you have never used it?”
Has anyone ever answered such a question or one like it and what explanation did you give? How was your answer taken and was it understood? |
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:26 am Post subject: Re: A common question |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
Here is a question often asked in martial arts, especially to instructors:
“How do you know a technique works if you have never used it?”
Has anyone ever answered such a question or one like it and what explanation did you give? How was your answer taken and was it understood? |
Isn't that what sparring's for? 
_________________
5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do
(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo) |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: A common question |
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| singularity6 wrote: |
| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
Here is a question often asked in martial arts, especially to instructors:
“How do you know a technique works if you have never used it?”
Has anyone ever answered such a question or one like it and what explanation did you give? How was your answer taken and was it understood? |
Isn't that what sparring's for? |
No. I can't say this with any degree of authority because different clubs have different sparring rules. But note that last word there, 'rules'. Sparring has them.
Sparring is great for cardio, for honing reflexes, developing good judgement of range. There are many good reasons to spar. But sparring is not fighting. I sometimes worry that some of our students think they can fight just because they are good at sparring. Being good at sparring means you are good at applying the techniques you've been taught, within the rules you were taught, against an opponent who is also following the same rules. That is very different to fighting.
The answer to the question, how do you know this works, should always be, I don't.
Techniques are developed to give us options. A good teacher will never claim that something always works. A good teacher can teach you that something 'might' or 'can' work, but it should always be backed up with other options and the readiness to switch to something else the instant it becomes apparent it's not working. For example, if you get an armlock on, but your opponent starts to slip out, rather than trying to force the technique to work you should immediately switch to something else. A swift kick perhaps to create distance from the inevitable incoming.
But to attempt to answer the original question, modified slight to how do I know it CAN work?
Practice against willing training partners who will steadily increase the resistance and decrease compliance. Every time they neutralise your technique, try to figure out how and why it failed. In an armbar for example, perhaps your opponent is still able to punch you with his free hand. Figure out how come, adjust, try again. Repeat many times against many opponents until you can dominate in the vast majority of cases even against full resistance. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16425
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: A common question |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
Here is a question often asked in martial arts, especially to instructors:
“How do you know a technique works if you have never used it?”
Has anyone ever answered such a question or one like it and what explanation did you give? How was your answer taken and was it understood? |
Yes, I've answered such a question, and here's my general explanation.
In reality, ones technique(s), if it's never used by oneself, is nothing more than an educated assumption, and nothing much more.
Assumptions are the mother of all failures if they're never applied with cause and with an unmitigated resolve.
Sparring isn't the all of all things as to if said technique(s) work or not because it's a controlled and safe environment, and isn't for cause, for the aforementioned description(s).
When one trains within the world of cooperative training where resisting doesn't exist much, if at all, then again, assumptions can only be quite unclear understandings.
As far as how my answer was taken, and was it understood, well, as well as a deer takes to staring at oncoming headlights, depending on their level of knowledge and experiences.
Opinions are like belly-buttons; we all have one!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:14 am Post subject: Re: A common question |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| singularity6 wrote: |
| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
Here is a question often asked in martial arts, especially to instructors:
“How do you know a technique works if you have never used it?”
Has anyone ever answered such a question or one like it and what explanation did you give? How was your answer taken and was it understood? |
Isn't that what sparring's for? |
No. I can't say this with any degree of authority because different clubs have different sparring rules. But note that last word there, 'rules'. Sparring has them.
Sparring is great for cardio, for honing reflexes, developing good judgement of range. There are many good reasons to spar. But sparring is not fighting. I sometimes worry that some of our students think they can fight just because they are good at sparring. Being good at sparring means you are good at applying the techniques you've been taught, within the rules you were taught, against an opponent who is also following the same rules. That is very different to fighting.
The answer to the question, how do you know this works, should always be, I don't.
Techniques are developed to give us options. A good teacher will never claim that something always works. A good teacher can teach you that something 'might' or 'can' work, but it should always be backed up with other options and the readiness to switch to something else the instant it becomes apparent it's not working. For example, if you get an armlock on, but your opponent starts to slip out, rather than trying to force the technique to work you should immediately switch to something else. A swift kick perhaps to create distance from the inevitable incoming.
But to attempt to answer the original question, modified slight to how do I know it CAN work?
Practice against willing training partners who will steadily increase the resistance and decrease compliance. Every time they neutralise your technique, try to figure out how and why it failed. In an armbar for example, perhaps your opponent is still able to punch you with his free hand. Figure out how come, adjust, try again. Repeat many times against many opponents until you can dominate in the vast majority of cases even against full resistance. |
My post was a stab at humor. 
_________________
5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do
(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo) |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:26 am Post subject: Re: A common question |
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| singularity6 wrote: |
| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| singularity6 wrote: |
| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
Here is a question often asked in martial arts, especially to instructors:
“How do you know a technique works if you have never used it?”
Has anyone ever answered such a question or one like it and what explanation did you give? How was your answer taken and was it understood? |
Isn't that what sparring's for? |
No. I can't say this with any degree of authority because different clubs have different sparring rules. But note that last word there, 'rules'. Sparring has them.
Sparring is great for cardio, for honing reflexes, developing good judgement of range. There are many good reasons to spar. But sparring is not fighting. I sometimes worry that some of our students think they can fight just because they are good at sparring. Being good at sparring means you are good at applying the techniques you've been taught, within the rules you were taught, against an opponent who is also following the same rules. That is very different to fighting.
The answer to the question, how do you know this works, should always be, I don't.
Techniques are developed to give us options. A good teacher will never claim that something always works. A good teacher can teach you that something 'might' or 'can' work, but it should always be backed up with other options and the readiness to switch to something else the instant it becomes apparent it's not working. For example, if you get an armlock on, but your opponent starts to slip out, rather than trying to force the technique to work you should immediately switch to something else. A swift kick perhaps to create distance from the inevitable incoming.
But to attempt to answer the original question, modified slight to how do I know it CAN work?
Practice against willing training partners who will steadily increase the resistance and decrease compliance. Every time they neutralise your technique, try to figure out how and why it failed. In an armbar for example, perhaps your opponent is still able to punch you with his free hand. Figure out how come, adjust, try again. Repeat many times against many opponents until you can dominate in the vast majority of cases even against full resistance. |
My post was a stab at humor. |
Fair play
But you'd be amazed at how many people genuinely believe that sparring is fighting practice. It's a misunderstanding that I think can be dangerous. It's one thing to develop confidence, but it mustn't be false confidence.
I also sometimes think sparring can actually be counterproductive in some cases, depending on the rules. Consider where punches to the head are prohibited. I wonder how many skilled martial artists geysers out of the habit of guarding their head. |
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Shizentai
Green Belt
Joined: 01 Mar 2009
Posts: 417
Styles: karate
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:02 am Post subject: |
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When people say this, I find they often have killing someone in mind as the "true test." Because killing other people for the purpose of "testing a technique" is generally illegal in most countries on earth, no martial art is exempt from this you-never-used-it argument, at least not taken to the extreme.
Still, I've used plenty of waza to protect my life and well-being without having to take someone else's life, or ever even come close to doing so. So I do use them. So there. My ukemi saved me in a traffic accident. My kihon training has strengthened my muscles enough to give me relief from my joint condition. And, yes, only when absolutely called for, my full-contact gyakuzuki does in fact work to knock my opponent down, and my rear naked choke can put a man to sleep, no problem. Tried and tested in real life, not in kumite. For crying out loud, there is no need to think of hurting someone else as the ultimate goal! Just get yourself a safe way out of there. Good night sir.
_________________
"My work itself is my best signature."
-Kawai Kanjiro |
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Tempest
Green Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 424
Location: Dallas
Styles: Judo, HEMA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:53 am Post subject: Re: A common question |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
Here is a question often asked in martial arts, especially to instructors:
“How do you know a technique works if you have never used it?”
Has anyone ever answered such a question or one like it and what explanation did you give? How was your answer taken and was it understood? |
http://mattthornton.org/why-aliveness/
and
http://mattthornton.org/its-aliveness-still/
There. There is your answer. You know it works because you HAVE used it, or you don't know it works.
If you cannot or have have never been able to execute what you are claiming to be able to do against an intelligently resisting opponent in an adrenaline-fueled state then you DON't know if it works or not.
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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It takes careful planning and practice to come up with techniques that you will feel confident that they will work. I think that's the key, feeling confident enough to execute them.
Let's take a very basic technique. The punch. We all know the punch can work. But the key is, to what extent? A well placed/lucky punch could result in a knockout (a glass jaw on the other end can help, too). But should we consider this the norm? No, absolutely not. Same with any other technique we attempt to apply. I can kick to someone's knee in the hopes of breaking it, but at the least be confident that a solid landing kick there will at least break their balance, buying some time for a follow-up or an attempt to flee.
Another important point to keep in mind is that when developing self-defense curriculum, its important to build around solid principles, and make sure to fit the techniques to the principles. If someone tries to choke you, then you need to think escape, and any technique you do from the start should have the sole focus of affecting that escape. Anything that doesn't lead to that end is going to be faulty in that situation.
Following this, its practice, practice, practice. Its important to develop a practice method that allows resistance to the technique, in order for the student to learn to adjust to that resistance and work through it. This is also where the principles come into play. Keep the principles in mind, as opposed to certain techniques, and use techniques to work through the principles.
So, to answer the initial question in this thread, the answer should be, "I am confident that this technique can be effective in self-defense."
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: A common question |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
Here is a question often asked in martial arts, especially to instructors:
“How do you know a technique works if you have never used it?”
Has anyone ever answered such a question or one like it and what explanation did you give? How was your answer taken and was it understood? |
Depends on the meaning of the question and the technique/application they are referring to.
If we are talking about striking and kicking, these are proven during normal practice. If you are referring to throw and submissive holds, again it is easily proven.
Where things get sketchy is when you are talking about techniques that can do major damage or even cause death to the opponent. Do you take the instructors word? Well yes you can. You can also do a little research and find out the effects in medical journals and by using a little common sense.
What do I mean by common sense? Well if we are talking about say a particular vital point on the body, you can research this point in conjunction with anatomical features of the body. Example: if the point falls over a major artery, common sense tells us that if struck (bruised, hemorrhaged, or torn) the effects will be major if not deadly.
I am not a proponent of knocking people out or testing deadly techniques for the sake of ego and proving that it will do this or that. To me this is an unnecessary risk and irresponsible.
Most techniques and applications can be tested during normal practice without the risk involved.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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on the post.
