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che-lu student
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 08 Jun 2018
Posts: 10


PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

White Warlock wrote:
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Game/5011/chelu.html

Here's some videos of his son, who holds a 10th degree in that system.
http://www.masonkarate.com/Movie1.ram
http://www.masonkarate.com/Movie2.ram

Now, my comments: His son focused on forms competitions, with the present goal to get into movies. I have no idea if that is the totality of Che-lu, as there simply is not enough information provided. On the other hand, he's a tad young to be holding a 10th degree (25 years old).


When I trained it was about helping kids get off the streets and helping young adults become better people and improve their life - that was before year long subscriptions and automatic payments - I remember kids washing floors and cleaning bathrooms to pay their tuition..and some who didnt pay at all, but no one ever knew because the black belts knew it was better to keep the kid in the dojo for free than it was to return them to the street - IE - Enlightenment, Love. Unity - we had no desire to become movie stars -
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che-lu student
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 08 Jun 2018
Posts: 10


PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yellowbeltchic wrote:
There are two Mason. There is the son (the one you guys are talking about ) and then there is his dad (the one I am talking about). Confusing ain't it? (whoever found the website, cool and thank you)


Someone asked about the backgrounds and other things. Grandmaster Mason studied in Korea, Japan, and China (Kung-fu, TKD, and other system which has escaped my brain). He used different formats, movements, and styles to create Che-lu. So Che-lu was created solely by Grandmaster Mason.

Here is the website for Che- lu maybe in can be more help than I am giving now. http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Game/5011/
[url][/url]


TKD - Goju - Ketsugen - And I believe some Shorin and Shotokan, but I cant recall for sure - I know there were seven arts and a good portion of his training was at an authentic TKD monastery in Japan - as the story goes, he was a military son and he helped defend another kid in a street fight who was part of a monastery and was thus invited (as one of very few Americans) to train in the the monastery. I have no idea if this story is true, but it is what I was taught. - It is a shame that not more is shared about this art - That Kata's are beautiful - the core value was (in this order) Respect - Discipline - Intensity - over and over this is what we were taught - [/url]
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

che-lu student wrote:
yellowbeltchic wrote:
There are two Mason. There is the son (the one you guys are talking about ) and then there is his dad (the one I am talking about). Confusing ain't it? (whoever found the website, cool and thank you)


Someone asked about the backgrounds and other things. Grandmaster Mason studied in Korea, Japan, and China (Kung-fu, TKD, and other system which has escaped my brain). He used different formats, movements, and styles to create Che-lu. So Che-lu was created solely by Grandmaster Mason.

Here is the website for Che- lu maybe in can be more help than I am giving now. http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Game/5011/
[url][/url]


TKD - Goju - Ketsugen - And I believe some Shorin and Shotokan, but I cant recall for sure - I know there were seven arts and a good portion of his training was at an authentic TKD monastery in Japan - as the story goes, he was a military son and he helped defend another kid in a street fight who was part of a monastery and was thus invited (as one of very few Americans) to train in the the monastery. I have no idea if this story is true, but it is what I was taught. - It is a shame that not more is shared about this art - That Kata's are beautiful - the core value was (in this order) Respect - Discipline - Intensity - over and over this is what we were taught - [/url]


No disrespect but the story lines of the golden mantis, the dream of a tiger and dragon fighting and becoming one and the fact that he defended another kid who just happened to be a student in a TKD monastery in Japan and was invited as one of a handful of Americans has a movie just waiting to be made from it. Too reminiscent of Bloodsport, KungFu, etc.

I've never heard of the art and am very wary when it comes to Westerner's creating their own art. They typically are a hodge-podge of techniques without true understanding of how to make them mold together.

You mention Kata... What are the Kata? Do they have names we would recognize? Is there examples of them that can be watched (youtube, etc) What are the core principles and techniques of the art? Close techniques, long range techniques? What percentage split of punching/kicking? Etc., etc., etc.

The question has been asked several times and we have gotten little more than a history lesson on the founder, his dreams and the like.

What separates this art from others? How were the 7 arts put together and what are the 7 arts that you mentioned. How long did the founder study each of these arts? What grade (rank) did he attain in these arts?

No disrespect but if you're going to introduce an art you should at minimum describe the art other than the history and Dojo Kun.

How is it that a 25 year old holds a Judan? Get the duct tape because my head just exploded.

Your art might be valid in terms of fighting but I can't buy into a 25 year old Judan.
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1718

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if TKD refers to the Korean system of Taekwondo, it is impossible for anyone to have learned it in Japan at a monastery. For one, there aren’t nor have there ever been “tkd monasteries” anywhere. Second, although individual monks, priests or shamans may train in martial arts, temples, shrines or monasteries have nothing to do with martial arts in Japan, let alone a Korean one devised in the 1950’s with roots in Shotokan karate which originated in Okinawa.

Clearly the person making the original claim is either very confused about their martial arts background or deliberately taking advantage of a target audience whose only reference on martial arts and Asia are cheap chop-socky movies.

Such a claim is laughable to anyone who has studied and read accurate history of martial arts in the original and spent more than a few years training, traveling and living in Okinawa and many other parts of Japan. It might even offend some natives or at least make them mock or pity such ignorance.

From that point of view, the entire description of the system described sounds awfully shakey and suspiciously made-up. 25 years old is much, much too young and immature to have a tenth dan in anything using dan grades!

It’s just not believable. The highest one might be able to earn(stress on “earn”) by 25 is about 5th dan and that’s pushing it if the system is authentic and the skill level is evaluated based on actual ability and understanding of the given system.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

che-lu student wrote:
yellowbeltchic wrote:
There are two Mason. There is the son (the one you guys are talking about ) and then there is his dad (the one I am talking about). Confusing ain't it? (whoever found the website, cool and thank you)


Someone asked about the backgrounds and other things. Grandmaster Mason studied in Korea, Japan, and China (Kung-fu, TKD, and other system which has escaped my brain). He used different formats, movements, and styles to create Che-lu. So Che-lu was created solely by Grandmaster Mason.

Here is the website for Che- lu maybe in can be more help than I am giving now. http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Game/5011/
[url][/url]


TKD - Goju - Ketsugen - And I believe some Shorin and Shotokan, but I cant recall for sure - I know there were seven arts and a good portion of his training was at an authentic TKD monastery in Japan - as the story goes, he was a military son and he helped defend another kid in a street fight who was part of a monastery and was thus invited (as one of very few Americans) to train in the the monastery. I have no idea if this story is true, but it is what I was taught. - It is a shame that not more is shared about this art - That Kata's are beautiful - the core value was (in this order) Respect - Discipline - Intensity - over and over this is what we were taught - [/url]


I mean no disrespect, but this is just like one of those stories that were written before the Internet ushered in the age of global open communication.

I believe such stories were written to add some credibility to a particular style or teacher. It's a shame. Because often the style or teacher is very good, and absolutely doesn't need to be backed by fairytales.

We have a similar one within the organisation I'm in (world tang soo do association). We're taught that tang soo do is thousands of years old (the lineage of parent arts might be, but TSD started less than a century ago). There's some story about the founder witnessing an unknown monk defending himself against multiple attackers. Said founder followed said monk and copied him training in secret, before going to China to learn kung fu, and simultaneously learning other styles at school or something. Like most of these stories, ours doesn't stand up to scrutiny at all. It probably did when martial arts were still shrouded in mystery and the only sources of information we had available to us were the official club literature and the occasional article in a magazine. But now of course it's all out there for us.

These romantic stories are not a bad thing in my opinion. If they inspire people to train, great. If they encourage people to try to be kinder to each other, even better. But from a martial perspective, they're really not necessary. I think most people train for self improvement, not necessarily to honour a legend.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
if TKD refers to the Korean system of Taekwondo, it is impossible for anyone to have learned it in Japan at a monastery. For one, there aren’t nor have there ever been “tkd monasteries” anywhere. Second, although individual monks, priests or shamans may train in martial arts, temples, shrines or monasteries have nothing to do with martial arts in Japan, let alone a Korean one devised in the 1950’s with roots in Shotokan karate which originated in Okinawa.

Clearly the person making the original claim is either very confused about their martial arts background or deliberately taking advantage of a target audience whose only reference on martial arts and Asia are cheap chop-socky movies.

Such a claim is laughable to anyone who has studied and read accurate history of martial arts in the original and spent more than a few years training, traveling and living in Okinawa and many other parts of Japan. It might even offend some natives or at least make them mock or pity such ignorance.

From that point of view, the entire description of the system described sounds awfully shakey and suspiciously made-up. 25 years old is much, much too young and immature to have a tenth dan in anything using dan grades!

It’s just not believable. The highest one might be able to earn(stress on “earn”) by 25 is about 5th dan and that’s pushing it if the system is authentic and the skill level is evaluated based on actual ability and understanding of the given system.


I'd have a problem with this (25 / Godan) if actual ability and understanding of the system was the benchmark of grade but I would accept it more readily, as you could achieve this level if you started very young (I guess), than a 25 yr old Judan. Still wet behind the ears in terms of mastery in martial arts. Just not possible IMHO.

TKD in Japan? Good catch Spartacus Maximus.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I went surfing the web and was only able to find a few websites on Che-lu.

So on the face book site I was able to find a few pics and posts that I can only assume represents what is contained in Che-lu. I assume the following based on these pics and posts;

1. Che-lu is a form of Karate. Shows many picks of people in competition wearing Gi's and one post is titled Che-lu Karate.

2. Che-lu is also a form of Judo. One post is titled Che-lu Judo techniques.

3. Che-lu might contain Jujutsu. One post shows two competitors ground fighting although there is no direct evidence as nothing comes right out and says it.

4. One post states that the Che-lu black belt promotion is very prestigious and the most demanding and respected programs in the martial arts. Sorry but I've never heard of the art nor has it ever come to my attention in over 3 decades that we should look to Che-lu as an example of excellence in black belt testing. Not sure this statement as it is written can be considered true.

5. Che-lu might contain some form of Kenjutsu, Iaido or Kendo as the present Soke is shown in many pictures with a Katana. I'll hold any comments here.

6. There is a huge focus on competition. Many posts are focused around this topic. And one post claims that Che-lu has over 10,000 trophies.

I was only able to find two Youtube vids. One shows kids kickboxing (Yellow belts). The other shows a kids class (white belts).

There are two school websites. One in Somersworth NH and the other in Frankfort KY.

Based on the pictures in these websites, and the best I can tell, the focus is on children and tournament competition.

I was unable to find any direct information of what is taught (techniques, arts, etc.). They have a post titled Kata but no references to what those Kata are to be able to determine if they are Japanese, Okinawan or Korean. No Kata names so it's hard to know if these are Kata that were picked up and passed on or if they are an invention of the founder.

Based on what I was able to find there is not enough information to give a good description of what Che-lu actually is. Its definitely competition based as seen in the Face book posts and Youtube vids but doesn't go into what the core foundation of the art is nor does it describe the arts that make it up, what grades the founder held in them, how long he studied them or for that matter anything to tell a martial artist what it is or why they should study it.

My opinion is you should put more substantive information on the websites. I can't remember where I read this but on one site they claimed to be the most popular and fastest growing martial art. I personally have never heard of the art and it's hard to see how it could be with very little information for the would be student to form an opinion on.

Don't get me wrong there are a lot of schools/arts that do not have websites or well made websites. I myself belong to an organization that's stuck in the stone ages so I'm not judging the art based on the website. However what can be found doesn't give a detailed description of the art, it's founder or the present head of the art itself but instead shows a lot of flash. Pictures of competitors with posts describing the techniques being used and a guess who one the fight? I can't tell if these competitors are Che-lu students or just random pics.

As far as the art goes I can not form an opinion. So I can not judge the validity of the art nor do I think anyone else can. However I will say in my personal opinion, having a 25 yr old Judan doesn't send the right message to those that have studied traditional arts all their lives. To me it seems pretty McDojoish to say the least. But that is only one mans opinion.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14370
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Spartacus Maximus wrote:
if TKD refers to the Korean system of Taekwondo, it is impossible for anyone to have learned it in Japan at a monastery. For one, there aren’t nor have there ever been “tkd monasteries” anywhere. Second, although individual monks, priests or shamans may train in martial arts, temples, shrines or monasteries have nothing to do with martial arts in Japan, let alone a Korean one devised in the 1950’s with roots in Shotokan karate which originated in Okinawa.

Clearly the person making the original claim is either very confused about their martial arts background or deliberately taking advantage of a target audience whose only reference on martial arts and Asia are cheap chop-socky movies.

Such a claim is laughable to anyone who has studied and read accurate history of martial arts in the original and spent more than a few years training, traveling and living in Okinawa and many other parts of Japan. It might even offend some natives or at least make them mock or pity such ignorance.

From that point of view, the entire description of the system described sounds awfully shakey and suspiciously made-up. 25 years old is much, much too young and immature to have a tenth dan in anything using dan grades!

It’s just not believable. The highest one might be able to earn(stress on “earn”) by 25 is about 5th dan and that’s pushing it if the system is authentic and the skill level is evaluated based on actual ability and understanding of the given system.


I'd have a problem with this (25 / Godan) if actual ability and understanding of the system was the benchmark of grade but I would accept it more readily, as you could achieve this level if you started very young (I guess), than a 25 yr old Judan. Still wet behind the ears in terms of mastery in martial arts. Just not possible IMHO.

TKD in Japan? Good catch Spartacus Maximus.

I earned my Godan when I was 26, just 3 months shy of my 27th birthday; I started training in Shindokan in 1964 when I was 7 years old.

But a Judan AT 25 years old is impractical across the board, even if said person founded their own style. That person is still vastly to immature to hold a Judan and all that it's suppose to represent. EVEN, if a board appointed said Judan to a 25 year old; that's uncongenial. It's a slap in the face of anything and everything that the MA is. What MAist would take that rank at that young age seriously?? I sure wouldn't!!

Imho!!



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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14370
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
So I went surfing the web and was only able to find a few websites on Che-lu.

So on the face book site I was able to find a few pics and posts that I can only assume represents what is contained in Che-lu. I assume the following based on these pics and posts;

1. Che-lu is a form of Karate. Shows many picks of people in competition wearing Gi's and one post is titled Che-lu Karate.

2. Che-lu is also a form of Judo. One post is titled Che-lu Judo techniques.

3. Che-lu might contain Jujutsu. One post shows two competitors ground fighting although there is no direct evidence as nothing comes right out and says it.

4. One post states that the Che-lu black belt promotion is very prestigious and the most demanding and respected programs in the martial arts. Sorry but I've never heard of the art nor has it ever come to my attention in over 3 decades that we should look to Che-lu as an example of excellence in black belt testing. Not sure this statement as it is written can be considered true.

5. Che-lu might contain some form of Kenjutsu, Iaido or Kendo as the present Soke is shown in many pictures with a Katana. I'll hold any comments here.

6. There is a huge focus on competition. Many posts are focused around this topic. And one post claims that Che-lu has over 10,000 trophies.

I was only able to find two Youtube vids. One shows kids kickboxing (Yellow belts). The other shows a kids class (white belts).

There are two school websites. One in Somersworth NH and the other in Frankfort KY.

Based on the pictures in these websites, and the best I can tell, the focus is on children and tournament competition.

I was unable to find any direct information of what is taught (techniques, arts, etc.). They have a post titled Kata but no references to what those Kata are to be able to determine if they are Japanese, Okinawan or Korean. No Kata names so it's hard to know if these are Kata that were picked up and passed on or if they are an invention of the founder.

Based on what I was able to find there is not enough information to give a good description of what Che-lu actually is. Its definitely competition based as seen in the Face book posts and Youtube vids but doesn't go into what the core foundation of the art is nor does it describe the arts that make it up, what grades the founder held in them, how long he studied them or for that matter anything to tell a martial artist what it is or why they should study it.

My opinion is you should put more substantive information on the websites. I can't remember where I read this but on one site they claimed to be the most popular and fastest growing martial art. I personally have never heard of the art and it's hard to see how it could be with very little information for the would be student to form an opinion on.

Don't get me wrong there are a lot of schools/arts that do not have websites or well made websites. I myself belong to an organization that's stuck in the stone ages so I'm not judging the art based on the website. However what can be found doesn't give a detailed description of the art, it's founder or the present head of the art itself but instead shows a lot of flash. Pictures of competitors with posts describing the techniques being used and a guess who one the fight? I can't tell if these competitors are Che-lu students or just random pics.

As far as the art goes I can not form an opinion. So I can not judge the validity of the art nor do I think anyone else can. However I will say in my personal opinion, having a 25 yr old Judan doesn't send the right message to those that have studied traditional arts all their lives. To me it seems pretty McDojoish to say the least. But that is only one mans opinion.

Solid post!!

Shindokan is ALSO stuck in the stone age, and we don't apologize for that. We've tried countless amount of times to produce one, but nothing came fruitful from our well meant intentions. Nowadays, we don't even try to produce a website because it's just not that important to us anymore.

Whenever we're told the pros and cons of having or not having a website, we just shrug our shoulders because those reasons either side of the argument are important only to them, but to us, those reasons are also just not that important to us.

Besides, there's enough MA websites to go around. Adding one more just doesn't add value to the MA world.

Proof is on the floor, and not in any MA website and the like.

Imho!!




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che-lu student
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 08 Jun 2018
Posts: 10


PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
che-lu student wrote:
yellowbeltchic wrote:
There are two Mason. There is the son (the one you guys are talking about ) and then there is his dad (the one I am talking about). Confusing ain't it? (whoever found the website, cool and thank you)


Someone asked about the backgrounds and other things. Grandmaster Mason studied in Korea, Japan, and China (Kung-fu, TKD, and other system which has escaped my brain). He used different formats, movements, and styles to create Che-lu. So Che-lu was created solely by Grandmaster Mason.

Here is the website for Che- lu maybe in can be more help than I am giving now. http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Game/5011/
[url][/url]


TKD - Goju - Ketsugen - And I believe some Shorin and Shotokan, but I cant recall for sure - I know there were seven arts and a good portion of his training was at an authentic TKD monastery in Japan - as the story goes, he was a military son and he helped defend another kid in a street fight who was part of a monastery and was thus invited (as one of very few Americans) to train in the the monastery. I have no idea if this story is true, but it is what I was taught. - It is a shame that not more is shared about this art - That Kata's are beautiful - the core value was (in this order) Respect - Discipline - Intensity - over and over this is what we were taught - [/url]


No disrespect but the story lines of the golden mantis, the dream of a tiger and dragon fighting and becoming one and the fact that he defended another kid who just happened to be a student in a TKD monastery in Japan and was invited as one of a handful of Americans has a movie just waiting to be made from it. Too reminiscent of Bloodsport, KungFu, etc.

I've never heard of the art and am very wary when it comes to Westerner's creating their own art. They typically are a hodge-podge of techniques without true understanding of how to make them mold together.

You mention Kata... What are the Kata? Do they have names we would recognize? Is there examples of them that can be watched (youtube, etc) What are the core principles and techniques of the art? Close techniques, long range techniques? What percentage split of punching/kicking? Etc., etc., etc.

The question has been asked several times and we have gotten little more than a history lesson on the founder, his dreams and the like.

What separates this art from others? How were the 7 arts put together and what are the 7 arts that you mentioned. How long did the founder study each of these arts? What grade (rank) did he attain in these arts?

No disrespect but if you're going to introduce an art you should at minimum describe the art other than the history and Dojo Kun.

How is it that a 25 year old holds a Judan? Get the duct tape because my head just exploded.

Your art might be valid in terms of fighting but I can't buy into a 25 year old Judan.


I'm not posting to engage in a debate of legitimacy - the original post asked for information regarding the art and that is why I shared...Visit the dojo and make your own assessment if that is what is important to you..
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