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bushido_man96
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Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:37 pm Post subject: A side kick comparison: TTA style and ATA style |
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Hello all. I've done two styles of TKD in my Martial Arts career; first with the American Taekwondo Association (ATA), and then with the Traditional Taekwondo Association (TTA). Since I've been involved in two different TKD styles, I've learned two different ways of side kicking. I wanted to present both styles for discussion of the pros and cons and thoughts on each.
The first I learned was this ATA style: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4A16BTGy98
As you can see here, the chamber is up pretty high and in what we referred to as a "table top" position. When I taught the kick this way, I actually referred to it as such, and would put a target pad on the knee and have the students balance it there when doing slow concentration kicks on the wall to control the knee height.
The second way I learned was this TTA style: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t19qFxQVMKM
The TTA style kick has what I would refer to as a more "Karate feel" to it, thus the Karate instructional video shown here. The chamber is tighter to the base leg, but in more of a front kick chamber position than the high table top position of the ATA style side kick.
After my years in training, I've come to prefer the TTA way I do it now to the ATA way. I'm a big person on the bottom; God built me a really good base. This has base I have has always made the ATA way of chambering a challenge for me. My leg never feels close to my body, and the heel feels way out of line at the beginning of the kick. I also feel it doesn't allow me to engage my wonderfully ample hips as much as the TTA style chamber does.
The benefit to the ATA style chamber is that from that chamber, if you modify it slightly, you can throw three different kicks from the same chamber; a side kick, a round kick, or a hook kick, much in the fashion that Bill Wallace did when he fought. However, I feel that power I can generate from the TTA style chamber outweighs the benefit of disguising 3 kicks, so I don't use my old ATA way of chambering much anymore, even when I practice my ATA forms.
I'm curious as to how everyone else feels as concerns these two approaches to kicking. Bob and I discussed this a bit when we trained together, which sparked this thread. I look forward to hearing the thoughts and opinions of everyone else.
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
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Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Good topic. I would actually say that we use both in my school. It all depends on the preceding position and what you're trying to accomplish with the kick. In general, if my hips are already side on, I'll use what you call the ATA method and if my hips are full-facing (or I want to bring my back leg through and kick with that), I'll use the second (TTA) method. It seems counter-intuitive to me to waste time and effort moving to a specific knee-chambered position when I might as well use my current position to my advantage.
Take the right lead leg side-kick for example: if I'm full facing/hips square to the target, I'm going to have to rotate my hips over and turn my body to the left anyway so I might as well use that rotation as part of the kick and I'd bring my leg knee up front kick style. If I'm already standing side on my hips are already in position for the ATA method. It would be a wasted effort to turn my hips and body back round just to bring the knee up forwards to have to go back to side on again not to mention slower.
For me, it's also dependant on what I'm using the kick for. In sparring, I'm largely side on so I'd go with the ATA method as it fits my position and it's a bit quicker. Unless that is my movement on the floor had left me more square on to my opponent so the TTA method would be the one I'd pick. Also for me, the TTA method is more powerful so when I want to really want to stop somebody coming in on me or cause damage I will use that version even if it means that extra movement to rotate round.
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| The benefit to the ATA style chamber is that from that chamber, if you modify it slightly, you can throw three different kicks from the same chamber; a side kick, a round kick, or a hook kick, much in the fashion that Bill Wallace did when he fought. However, I feel that power I can generate from the TTA style chamber outweighs the benefit of disguising 3 kicks, so I don't use my old ATA way of chambering much anymore, even when I practice my ATA forms. |
Wallace does say this in one of his books I have. But again, he always fought from a side facing stance so you could say that that chamber was more natural to him.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| Take the right lead leg side-kick for example: if I'm full facing/hips square to the target, I'm going to have to rotate my hips over and turn my body to the left anyway so I might as well use that rotation as part of the kick and I'd bring my leg knee up front kick style. If I'm already standing side on my hips are already in position for the ATA method. It would be a wasted effort to turn my hips and body back round just to bring the knee up forwards to have to go back to side on again not to mention slower. |
Thanks for the reply, DWx. I think I may have been confusing in my initial post. Here is another clip of a kick more like the TTA side kick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_FgD2_uvXY
This is actually the set-up we use in basics. The knee is tight to the leg, like a front kick chamber, even on front leg kicks, without the step. Just pull it up tight like a front kick, as opposed to the high table top like that ATA style.
Here is another good example of what I was trying to describe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4baJ-SQBa0&feature=endscreen&NR=1
Sorry if I was confusing, and I hope that clarifies. I'll keep an eye out for more videos, too.
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DWx
Black Belt
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Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:21 am Post subject: |
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Heh well now I'm confused 
So we have 2 main ways to do a side kick in my school:
1. Lift the knee straight up shin pointing forward to the target, knee up to the ceiling, front kick like position. Then as the leg extends it rotates over into position. You're front facing the target.
2. Leg is brought up into a position so that the side of the leg and ankle point to the ceiling. Knee is almost at a right angle to where you want to kick. The leg then extends straight out without rotation to the target. You're side on to the target.
These match the two types you do?
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bushido_man96
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Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, Danielle, pretty well. I'm just not tied by either to a specific target or movement. Like the first one you discuss, it doesn't necessarily come off the back leg in a front facing stance.
I'll try to put some brief videos on youtube, link them here, and see if that helps.
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DWx
Black Belt
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
Yes, Danielle, pretty well. I'm just not tied by either to a specific target or movement. Like the first one you discuss, it doesn't necessarily come off the back leg in a front facing stance.
I'll try to put some brief videos on youtube, link them here, and see if that helps. |
Ok. I still think my constraints on which side kick to pick still stand, at least in my school anyway. If the rotation is key anyway to moving into position or delivering a side kick with the leg you want to, the knee up front-kick style is the one I'll use because that rotation might as well be used as part of the kick. If I don't need to rotate my hips because I'm already side on and I just want to throw my front leg out, it is quicker (albeit less powerful) for me to use the other version. That doesn't mean to say I can't use either version from either position, I just try to reduce any extra movements and utilise any movements I do have to make as part of the technique.
The knee-up one doesn't necessarily have to be off of the back leg but if I were to do a back leg kick, 9/10 this would be my choice of version because my hips are going to have to turn in the process anyway. It can be done with the front leg, but again, I'll choose to do it when the hips are more square and use the other method for when more side on because I can build the hip rotation into the kick. NB. By front facing, I mean hips front facing or square, the rest of the body, the feet etc. doesn't matter.
Videos might help, I'll see if I can find my camera too 
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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| The knee-up one doesn't necessarily have to be off of the back leg but if I were to do a back leg kick, 9/10 this would be my choice of version because my hips are going to have to turn in the process anyway. |
I agree with this. Its hard to come off the back leg and keep that table top position; it makes it long and clunky, and telegraphic bad. I prefer to keep the knee tight, and then burst with the hips and pivot to get power into that kick.
But, even when I'm side on, I still tend to bring the knee up into more of the front kick style chamber now, because as along as I pivot and twist, I can still get good hip power into the kick, too.
Again, I base my bias here on my body build more than anything, and it feels better to me to utilize my rather ample legs in this way.
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DWx
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| DWx wrote: |
| The knee-up one doesn't necessarily have to be off of the back leg but if I were to do a back leg kick, 9/10 this would be my choice of version because my hips are going to have to turn in the process anyway. |
I agree with this. Its hard to come off the back leg and keep that table top position; it makes it long and clunky, and telegraphic bad. I prefer to keep the knee tight, and then burst with the hips and pivot to get power into that kick.
But, even when I'm side on, I still tend to bring the knee up into more of the front kick style chamber now, because as along as I pivot and twist, I can still get good hip power into the kick, too.
Again, I base my bias here on my body build more than anything, and it feels better to me to utilize my rather ample legs in this way. |
Don't know about you, but I always feel that back leg kicking using that table-top method seems a bit awkward to me. You're almost going back on yourself to go forward again.
I guess most of this is down to personal preference. For a long time, I preferred the table-top method because I struggled to get the front-kick knee high enough when doing the kick by the other method. But nowadays, both are ok. I still prefer to break with a lead leg, table-top style kick though.
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DWx
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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What do you do about consecutive kicking? So when you double up on the same leg without putting it down? Definitely for me the table top method would be the way I'd go.
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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| What do you do about consecutive kicking? So when you double up on the same leg without putting it down? Definitely for me the table top method would be the way I'd go. |
With consecutive kicking, since my leg is already up, yes, I usually end up going more with the table top method, but the first kick is usually going to be that front kick chamber with lots of power of the hip twist, and then the second from the table top.
Now my round kick chambers all come pretty much from the table top chamber.
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on the post.
