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RW
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 407


PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:


RW wrote:
...Sure, "kata has all the grappling/headbutts/knees/elbows/eye pokes", but that is not something we practice on sparring or with resisting partners...


I do, and I know plenty of other people who do, as well. Just because it isn't mainstream, these days, doesn't mean it isn't being done.



This is interesting. You really poke people in the eyes (on purpose) and headbutt them in the face (on purpose) when sparring?

Tell me more, this is really interesting, especially considering how even an unintentional eye poke usually stops a UFC match. I have never seen something like this.
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2552
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RW wrote:
Wastelander wrote:


RW wrote:
...Sure, "kata has all the grappling/headbutts/knees/elbows/eye pokes", but that is not something we practice on sparring or with resisting partners...


I do, and I know plenty of other people who do, as well. Just because it isn't mainstream, these days, doesn't mean it isn't being done.



This is interesting. You really poke people in the eyes (on purpose) and headbutt them in the face (on purpose) when sparring?

Tell me more, this is really interesting, especially considering how even an unintentional eye poke usually stops a UFC match. I have never seen something like this.


You make adjustments for safety, just like every other form of sparring. If you spar with gloves, mouthguards, and groin protectors, for example, you're making adjustments for safety. If you apply joint locks and chokes slowly enough for your partner to tap out, you're making adjustments for safety. If you stop elbows short, or slow them down, so you don't cut your partners open, you're making adjustments for safety. If you punch lighter to the head to avoid CTE, you're making adjustments for safety. The list goes on and on. There is NO form of sparring that is 100% realistic.

In the case of eye pokes, I've done sparring with safety goggles, but honestly if you can reliably punch someone in the nose, you can poke them in the eyes at a distance by simply opening your hands, and you can get some extra target practice in on BOB or one of the handheld head-shaped targets, if you really want to. For close range, most of the time I just incorporate gouges by digging my thumb into the nerves beneath the cheekbone--it gets a similar response, without being dangerous, and if you can reach that spot, you can reach the eyes. Headbutts you just cut the striking action a bit short and then press your head into their head firmly, like you would do as part of clinch fighting. Again, if you can grind your head against their nose, you can headbutt them. To account for the impact, you can add the occasional headbutt into padwork drills, as well.
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aurik
Orange Belt
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Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 197
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu

PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
In Shindokan, we do resistance training in everything we do from day one, including grappling because our effectiveness depends on it. Drives me crazy whenever I cross-train and whomever I'm training with refuses to do any resistant training.




We do the same in Uechi-Ryu. As students get more advanced, they are expected to grab their opponent and manipulate the distance by pulling/pushing the opponent to get them in optimal range for each technique. I particularly enjoy some of our kick-based hojo undo techniques -- opponent punches, you step off at a 45-degree angle, do a push block immediately followed by a circular block & grab of the forearm if you can get it. You then pull the opponent towards you while giving him a toe kick to the floating ribs.

Brutal, yet satisfying and effective.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28973
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
In Shindokan, we do resistance training in everything we do from day one, including grappling because our effectiveness depends on it. Drives me crazy whenever I cross-train and whomever I'm training with refuses to do any resistant training.




I remember working together on various grappling aspects when we trained together, Bob. I kind of planted that kind of seed with the "new management" of our school, and I believe they've been doing more and more with it in self-defense training.
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GS718Trek
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 61


PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can mold your Karate training however way you want (that includes full resistance)
I concur with Wastelander as he states that just because it isnt mainstream, doesnt mean it isnt being done..

There old school Karate pioneers that implemented full contact sparring that pre dates YT, Kenwa Mabuni (Shito Ryu) is a figure that comes to mind.. You can find old black and white photos with him dressed in full sparring gear, so you know he was definitly up to something.. now did he include full resistance grappling using the bunkai he was supposdly known for being knowledgable in? Who knows?



Im also a fan of Roys YT vids (I also train BJJ) great cinematics and he is definitly a student, and has respect towards the Japanese MAs (I think he trained Karate for a brief period in time). My fascination with the videos is just seeing how exhausted beat the guys in the video are untill that very end, eventually earning the belt. The beginning parts of his vids are of the student performing the "kata" for the BJJ curriculum then comes the full resistance sparring at the end, remember these are for a belt test and there are Karate styles that require such tests in the same format but for KARATE (e.g Kyokushin kumite, Shotokan etc..) those test are painful and no joke by any means.. BJJ has full resistance as a part of regular class, as Karate does when we kumite (spar) just apples and bananas in differences. JUDO trains and tests the same as you can find a good amount of YT vids that show them. Here is a few


- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AuwOoZp-N20
- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQpG5hDyGJA


I would agree that it would be fantastic if we break free from tradition and add more grappling elements taking from bunkai, and added them as a regular part of all aspects of Karate training.


I would imagine, if somone where to post a vid of standup grappling of Karate bunkai, then it might look something similar to this but with more intensity/resistance and back and forth exhanges (although David Bertrand is a Kali specialist) *side note* I feel bad for the Uke in the vid

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eWMYUUKPHMM

I know Kali has some newly found conncetions with Karate, as pointed out by Jesse Enkamp
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ShoriKid
Pre-Black Belt
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Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 900

Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling, bits of BJJ

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*stretches, cracks knuckles, and types*
We have incorporated clinch range grappling, joint locks, chokes, close range striking with elbows and knees, for more than 2 decades as a regular practice. Judo style throws(which were really just old karate throws), just a couple, trips, and sweeps have been part of what I've learned since I started training in the mid 90s. We have made BJJ a part of our training personally, and what we teach for more than a decade (Pitbulljudoka is the specialist there).

I feel like incorporating those sorts of techniques is both evolving karate and returning it to it's roots at the same time. Pre-Japanese karate had large grappling and close range elements that were largely removed once karate moved from Okinawa. The Japanese had their own grappling systems and karate instructors in that first generation in Japan certainly felt pressure to make karate stand out to justify it having a place at the crowded martial table of the time. So, a lot of those things were lost, and the kendo enfluence for a sportive outlet for karate can be seen in the ranges and scoring that found it's way into karate competitions. Those longer ranges put pressure on karate to teach those longer range techniques instead of the in close fighting and self-defense techniques of it's roots.

So, while adding these elements back in is taking karate back closer to what it was, the ground focus that BJJ gives, is a newer piece of the puzzle. There wasn't a part of the karate manual of arms that was focused on ground fighting. Putting people on the ground certainly, and then locking them from perhaps kneeling, or just striking them hard a few times. And honestly, I have put so much time into my stand up work I don't want someone to take it away from me easily. If a guy with a few seasons of high school football ten years back can put me on my butt and take away my years of hard work, that is terrible. BJJ lets me get back up and keep fighting the way I decide. And grappling training is a lot of fun.

And hi folks, those I recognize, I'm not dead. Just rarely on a laptop these days.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28973
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great to see you, ShoriKid!

We did a little grappling work in our black belt class the other night. It wasn't very much active rolling, just drilling. It was a lot of fun. I worry that our CI considers getting into the grappling stuff too much would be "too advanced." It's not, though; it's just different.
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ShoriKid
Pre-Black Belt
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Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 900

Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling, bits of BJJ

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Great to see you, ShoriKid!

We did a little grappling work in our black belt class the other night. It wasn't very much active rolling, just drilling. It was a lot of fun. I worry that our CI considers getting into the grappling stuff too much would be "too advanced." It's not, though; it's just different.


bushido_man96,

It is good to be seen. I may try to come by a little more. Like I said, rarely on a lap top these days.

THe good thing for grappling on the ground, aside from the good work out, it teaches good body awareness and the ability to have hands and feet doing different things at the same time. I find that is something a lot of students struggle with. We don't consider the grappling aspect 'too advanced', but a lot of that is Pitbull's influence. We have been going back and revising our requirements for students both in stand up and grappling requirements. Mostly looking at what is appropriate at each level. And our grappling is seeing some real changes to make sure the skills are building progressively. While the skills were already in a good logical progression, we asked the question, "What does a sound stand up fighter need to survive on the ground" for lower belts. For mid/high belts it was, "what provides them an advantage and who can they control someone with less damage."
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28973
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would love to see grappling reach a progression like that in our school, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Right now, it appears that it will stay relegated to the black belt class. Which is sad, really, as all the students can benefit from this knowledge.
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tatsujin
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 31

Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: adding full resistance grappling to Karate Reply with quote

BeefcaketheBarber wrote:
I wish Karate would evolve and add full resistance grappling as a part of the practice. It would be pretty neat if a style was made with the the best striking from the Okinawan/japanese styles, best kyoshi jitsu, judo newaza/BJJ for ground. Training with resistance to the extent that most grappling schools ..


As a few other people have mentioned, Ryukyu Kempo (or just te if you prefer) had all of that and much more. As folks like Itosu and Funakoshi were working to get "karate" (empty hand) into the school systems and mainland Japan, they changed the kata and bunkai and removed everything (for the most part) other than strikes and kicks. Sure, a few takedowns/sweeps/throws and a bit of standing grappling here and there. But at that point that art basically devolved and was then set on a new evolutionary track from there. But, there are still those that do ground work/grappling and much more.
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