Add KarateForums.com
Username:    Password:
Remember Me?    
   I Lost My Password!
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Karate
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 See a User Guidelines violation? Press on the post.
Author Message

BeefcaketheBarber
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 21 Dec 2020
Posts: 17

Styles: Shorin Ryu, kickboxing

PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:28 pm    Post subject: adding full resistance grappling to Karate Reply with quote

I wish Karate would evolve and add full resistance grappling as a part of the practice. It would be pretty neat if a style was made with the the best striking from the Okinawan/japanese styles, best kyoshi jitsu, judo newaza/BJJ for ground. Training with resistance to the extent that most grappling schools ..

Im a fan of Roy dean BJJ belt test videos on YT, I fantasized seeing Karate test like that using all the possible grappling moves from kata etc.


Last edited by BeefcaketheBarber on Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1783
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My teacher in Shorin Ryu did this. Of all the things that he added, this was my favorite. I 100% agree that grappling should be worked in to Karate. When I eventually get around to teaching MA it will 100% be a part of my program.
_________________
Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

RW
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 407


PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an odd take, but, hasn't karate found its niche?

Karate will never be as good as BJJ when it comes to ground work, and it will never be as good as judo for throws. For the better or the worse, karate specialized as a striking art with some tripping here and there, and no knee/elbow/headbutt strikes. Sure, "kata has all the grappling/headbutts/knees/elbows/eye pokes", but that is not something we practice on sparring or with resisting partners.

I recall Rokas tried to turn aikido into a practical art and he decided not to go through with it because it stopped resembling aikido and it was becoming more like wrestling.

Sure, karate is actually applicable, but my point is if we incorporated knees, elbows clinching and boxing-style punches it might as well be muay thai, right? In the same manner if we added BJJ/Judo grappling it'd stop resembling karate, it'd possibly simply become MMA.

Actually... from a historical perspective, karate did go through a great transformation. Certain karateka wanted full contact karate fights, and the end result stopped resembling karate and became the full contact kickboxing that guys like Superfoot Wallace and Joe Lewis were known for. A "grappling karate" would transform into the grappling equivalent of that.

I think the closest we can get to "real fight karate" without it having stop being karate is that karate combat event they show now
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1783
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But shouldn't Karate continue to evolve? Karate began as a way to defend one's self. In that vein, the "old karate masters" created systems that work for them. It made sense to them to do things a certain way because it worked and continued to mold their art to fit what they needed. Why shouldn't we do the same? Tradition is great, but I think that if presented with the same conundrum, these same masters would absolutely incorporate ground work if they felt it necessary.

Also, does the grappling in a Karate system have to be as good as BJJ? The inverse of this is that a BJJ teaching strikes wouldn't be as good. These, however, are just assumptions. They could be just as good. Splitting focuses don't necessarily mean that both suffer.

At its core, a lot of what Karate is about is self defense. If, for whatever reason, I am involved in a street fight and it goes to the ground, then ground fighting will come in handy. It doesn't have to be as good as BJJ, it just has to be enough to get me out of the situation.

If the best way to defend myself becomes turning my art into something that resembles MMA, then so be it. I think that our attachment to the tradition of our arts holds us back more than we think.
_________________
Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

BeefcaketheBarber
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 21 Dec 2020
Posts: 17

Styles: Shorin Ryu, kickboxing

PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Karate has as equal amount of grappling techniques as striking, it would be great if it was trained to a greater extent.

I agree that Karate (or most martial arts for that matter) has always been a product of someone evolving the art and how its trained. Some Karate styles are mainly striking focused, but some are tuite heavy with little striking techniques, and some have all elements but in pieces. There are Shoto styles that incorporate Nagewaza, suwari waza, and Torite to even progress in rank. Point being, the techniques are there.. it be great to eventually see all these elements trained and utilized to a farther extent rather than just being a part of your typical “ Bunkai technique for todays class” and soft back and forth attempts on a partner.

Jiu jitsu had some criticism for not having striking or not being able to take strikes out of the general sport ruleset (a punch will turn a black belt will turn into a white belt saying..). Then eventually “Combat Jiujitsu” came out and some bjj test are incorporating striking or defending against strikes as a part of the exam.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

RW
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 407


PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
But shouldn't Karate continue to evolve? Karate began as a way to defend one's self. In that vein, the "old karate masters" created systems that work for them. It made sense to them to do things a certain way because it worked and continued to mold their art to fit what they needed. Why shouldn't we do the same? Tradition is great, but I think that if presented with the same conundrum, these same masters would absolutely incorporate ground work if they felt it necessary.

Also, does the grappling in a Karate system have to be as good as BJJ? The inverse of this is that a BJJ teaching strikes wouldn't be as good. These, however, are just assumptions. They could be just as good. Splitting focuses don't necessarily mean that both suffer.

At its core, a lot of what Karate is about is self defense. If, for whatever reason, I am involved in a street fight and it goes to the ground, then ground fighting will come in handy. It doesn't have to be as good as BJJ, it just has to be enough to get me out of the situation.

If the best way to defend myself becomes turning my art into something that resembles MMA, then so be it. I think that our attachment to the tradition of our arts holds us back more than we think.


That's the point, karate already evolved into kickboxing, and it could be argued it evolved into MMA as well. It's just so different from the source it's hard to tell.

Every time a UFC guy lands a backfist, a side kick, a spinning kick or sweeps the foot, that's karate. Even if they swear they're Muay Thai guys (and they are), those techniques are not Muay Thai techniques, and they had to come from somewhere else... that was directly or indirectly karate, it's the legacy of the karate fighters who transitioned into kickboxing and the dream and k-1 fights and dutch kickboxing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1783
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But why is that a bad thing?
_________________
Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

aurik
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 197
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our CI teaches grappling in the form of takedowns, joint locks, and chokes. We don't generally practice ground grappling, because the philosophy is that if you go to the ground against opponent #1, then opponent #2 will likely start just kicking the crap out of you. The idea is you throw opponent #1 to the ground, give him a good smack in a vital area to keep him down for a bit, and then move to the next opponent.

For the students that want more in the way of a throwing/grappling art, our school also offers aikido.
_________________
5th kyu Shuri-Ryu, 4th kyu Judo, 2nd kyu Uechi-Ryu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Wastelander
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2552
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karateka have always been involved in grappling arts of various types. Originally, it was tegumi/muto, and then Japanese jujutsu and Sumo, then Judo and Aikido. Historically, this has been a fairly standard practice. My Sensei liked to incorporate grappling/groundwork into our karate training pretty regularly, but some prefer to have students cross-train, because they can get a more focused education in grappling by training with an instructor who specializes in it. Nothing wrong with that, but I do think you need to incorporate it into your sparring.

RW wrote:
...Sure, "kata has all the grappling/headbutts/knees/elbows/eye pokes", but that is not something we practice on sparring or with resisting partners...


I do, and I know plenty of other people who do, as well. Just because it isn't mainstream, these days, doesn't mean it isn't being done.

RW wrote:

...Sure, karate is actually applicable, but my point is if we incorporated knees, elbows clinching and boxing-style punches it might as well be muay thai, right? In the same manner if we added BJJ/Judo grappling it'd stop resembling karate, it'd possibly simply become MMA...


Why do we care what karate resembles? It has always had knees, elbows, clinching, and the like, so what does it matter if it resembles Muay Thai or MMA? It doesn't magically become a different art because you fight with the material the style was supposed to have in it all along. If anything, modern mainstream karate doesn't resemble karate, anymore.

RW wrote:

...I think the closest we can get to "real fight karate" without it having stop being karate is that karate combat event they show now


"Real fight karate" is much better represented by MMA, honestly. Admittedly, contextually, it would be better if the goal was to get off the ground, rather than stay on it, but still, it's the ruleset that allows the most karate material. Karate Combat is just a reboot of the same American kickboxing you mentioned. Heck, I just watched their promo for their next season, and it was pointed out how a double-leg takedown was illegal--that takedowns is literally in the books written by the founder of Shotokan, and he wasn't even known for being that good at fighting.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu | 2010-Present: Nidan | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker, Adrian Rivera
Karate Obsession | Arizona Practical Karate
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15453
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Shindokan, we do resistance training in everything we do from day one, including grappling because our effectiveness depends on it. Drives me crazy whenever I cross-train and whomever I'm training with refuses to do any resistant training.



_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Karate All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


< Advertising - Contact - Disclosure Policy - Staff - User Guidelines >