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chrissyp
Orange Belt
Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 175
Styles: Muay Thai/ Shotokan
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 Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:11 am Post subject: Aiki Jiu jitsu and MMA |
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So i'm starting to learn Aiki, and was wandering if anyone has found any of the techniques effective for MMA, or if there any MMA fighters with an aiki base in there ground game? I'm not very educated on it, and we would love to know more off the difference between this and BJJ.
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:20 am Post subject: |
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As far as I'm aware, Aiki Jujutsu is largely focused on standing techniques--usually against a fully-committed attack. There are plenty of techniques and concepts that carry over into grappling on the ground, but the way Aiki Jujutsu and BJJ are trained are quite a bit different. Also, you aren't often confronted with a fully-committed attack in MMA, as you are in a sport fight with a trained opponent. They will typically try to set up their strikes in combinations, instead.
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Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Its not a plausible system for modern day fighting. Most of the wrist locking techniques were designed to be used when your opponent is holding on to something (say a sword). This way its easier for you to determine where their wrist will be and they also wont pull away (leaving their weapon behind).
Since no one is attacking anyone else with swords, the effectiveness of it is severely limited. It doesnt have application for MMA and about the only thing it shares with the brazilian variant is its name. |
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cheesefrysamurai
Purple Belt
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 502
Location: New Jersey
Styles: Okinawan Goju Ryu
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
Its not a plausible system for modern day fighting. Most of the wrist locking techniques were designed to be used when your opponent is holding on to something (say a sword). This way its easier for you to determine where their wrist will be and they also wont pull away (leaving their weapon behind).
Since no one is attacking anyone else with swords, the effectiveness of it is severely limited. It doesnt have application for MMA and about the only thing it shares with the brazilian variant is its name. |
You are incorrect. Trust me- you are taught to defend single hand push, double hand push, lapel grab, double lapel grab, wrist grabs, double wrist grabs, all types of punches and kicks- bear hugs, hair grabs,,,, etc. this is a common misconception I have heard a lot coincidentally from people who take bjj. Usually it's part of an arguement that suggests that it's a prehistoric form of what the Gracie's perfected. In my experience this system can get pretty nasty, you try putting your hand on the collar to get your grip, you will not be a happy camper.
Aiki jitsu will be helpful, show you how to find and be aware of joints and things of that nature. You have to keep in mind, it's not a competition.
IMHO bjj has more in common with Judo.
Just my 2 cents.
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Harkon72
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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I practice traditional Aikido, which O Sensei refined from Aiki Jitsu. I studied Karate for over 25 years before that. In Aikido practice, you can attack any way you want. I was challenged to, I tried, I saw the mat each time, very hard. There are no set techniques in Aikido, only simple principals which you learn to apply to any thing that comes your way. You might find that a certain approach works well with one person, great. Then on the command to change partners, you find you must adapt and feel your way to take on another person who might be totally different. This has been Aikido's greatest gift to me. You cannot rely on technique, you cannot look for it, every encounter is different. If you have a set move in your mind as you see your opponent close on you, you will lose. We are taught technique, but the application of the natural flow of where the point of balance is is where the essence of the art is realised. The amazing thing is that you can apply these principals to any martial art, it doesn't have to be the Aikido tradition only. My Karate has come on in leaps and bounds. It's still Karate, but it moves and executes with the flow of Aiki.
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cheesefrysamurai
Purple Belt
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 502
Location: New Jersey
Styles: Okinawan Goju Ryu
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Harkon72 wrote: |
| I practice traditional Aikido, which O Sensei refined from Aiki Jitsu. I studied Karate for over 25 years before that. In Aikido practice, you can attack any way you want. I was challenged to, I tried, I saw the mat each time, very hard. There are no set techniques in Aikido, only simple principals which you learn to apply to any thing that comes your way. You might find that a certain approach works well with one person, great. Then on the command to change partners, you find you must adapt and feel your way to take on another person who might be totally different. This has been Aikido's greatest gift to me. You cannot rely on technique, you cannot look for it, every encounter is different. If you have a set move in your mind as you see your opponent close on you, you will lose. We are taught technique, but the application of the natural flow of where the point of balance is is where the essence of the art is realised. The amazing thing is that you can apply these principals to any martial art, it doesn't have to be the Aikido tradition only. My Karate has come on in leaps and bounds. It's still Karate, but it moves and executes with the flow of Aiki. |
Solid post!
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| cheesefrysamurai wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
Its not a plausible system for modern day fighting. Most of the wrist locking techniques were designed to be used when your opponent is holding on to something (say a sword). This way its easier for you to determine where their wrist will be and they also wont pull away (leaving their weapon behind).
Since no one is attacking anyone else with swords, the effectiveness of it is severely limited. It doesnt have application for MMA and about the only thing it shares with the brazilian variant is its name. |
You are incorrect. Trust me- you are taught to defend single hand push, double hand push, lapel grab, double lapel grab, wrist grabs, double wrist grabs, all types of punches and kicks- bear hugs, hair grabs,,,, etc. this is a common misconception I have heard a lot coincidentally from people who take bjj. Usually it's part of an arguement that suggests that it's a prehistoric form of what the Gracie's perfected. In my experience this system can get pretty nasty, you try putting your hand on the collar to get your grip, you will not be a happy camper.
Aiki jitsu will be helpful, show you how to find and be aware of joints and things of that nature. You have to keep in mind, it's not a competition.
IMHO bjj has more in common with Judo.
Just my 2 cents. |
I'm going to agree, in principle at least, with TJ. I don't see it having a place in modern MMA competitions. Notice, I'm not making any determination on it's effectiveness in other settings. The question was in regard to MMA.
Coming out of an art initially that included standing joint locking I have a touch of perspective on this. Look first at the list you included to the self defense aspect you're talking about, samurai. How many of those attacks are you seeing in MMA? Punches and kicks, yes. Everything else?
Not the street, not a bar fight, not an ambush assault, in MMA?
Now, consider that if you pit standing joint manipulation vs. striking you're essentially setting up a defensive mindset. The other guy HAS to do one of these for you to effect a manipulation. That by definition is defensive. Offense wins fights. It's built into the ruleset of MMA.
Next, the reason why you see joint manipulation work on the ground vs. standing in MMA (BJJ vs. JJJ or AJJ) is the isolation that the ground provides. This was an eye opener when I made the jump. A sweaty, conditioned, just as skilled as you fighter who has been training twice a day for 6-8 weeks is going to present problems in acquisition of joint control and fine manipulation while moving and fighting tooth and nail.
This is is contrast to BJJ where the ground helps hold the same individual in place for you while you wrap your core (not arms) around a joint and use your whole body (not a portion of it or reliance on momentum as in JJJ) to constrict the range of motion in a joint to submission.
This is two different animals. Let's look at a hypothetical fight. You and your mirror image (because MMA is controlled for weight and hopefully skill) both come out of your corner. You want to joint manip him since he's a striker and you're a tuite guy. You wait.
He wades in with a bomb or two. You manage (which is a hard sell but I'm willing to bend here) to isolate an extended arm. He's slippery already from his warm up, and starts fighting hard. While you're working for control, he's bombing with the other hand to anything that presents. You've got two hands tied up on his one. He's hitting you and you're "health meter" so to speak is going down. You're losing points.
If this goes on the whole round who wins based on the rule set?
The guy doing damage. Not the guy who might have broken his wrist if he had been able to.
Again, I'm not bashing. I did standing manipulations for a long time. I'm just pointing out that the ruleset alone for MMA makes this sort of thing less than adequate. It's not my summary judgment on the art as a whole, just an evaluation of it for THIS particular purpose.
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cheesefrysamurai
Purple Belt
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 502
Location: New Jersey
Styles: Okinawan Goju Ryu
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Nice answer tailgeese- well thought out. And I agree.
In the parameters of mma - as you stated, I couldn't agree more.
I more took that statement as being general which is my bad. It sounded General- sounded like broad statements -Regardless what i do not agree with is a statement regarding aikijitsu or jjj as being defunct because the conditions of the samurai are.
Aikijitsu is combat effective- but not effective in MMA- and you nailed the reasons imo, and yes the floor gives you the base for the joint lock - but in aikijitsu it's more taking it all the way, instead of terminating at the tap, somebodies momentum or body weight is challenging the joint - you don't need the base because physics is tearing through the joint, the base is your opponents body not moving in a precise opposite way to not allow the joint to be compressed
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:28 am Post subject: |
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I'm extremely well versed in Tuite and the like, so, are you two, Alex and/or cheesefrysamurai indicating that I'd have no chance in MMA type competitions or in the streets??
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Harkon72
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:52 am Post subject: |
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We train joint manipulation hard in Aikido, and it goes much further than the classic Ikkyo to Gokkyo that O Sensei gave us. They can be subtle, gentle and guiding, at other times you hit a wall as the technique is applied; sometimes a sharp pain as the mechanics of your body are used against you.
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on the post.
