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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RW wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
RW wrote:
There is a series of videos in yotube called aikido quest.

Basically an aikido practitioner decided his style was ineffective and is trying to change it. He quit his organization and he's trying to incorporate other techniques to his art.

This is one of his videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=0KUXTC8g_pk


I have great respect for that guy. He has guts, and an open mind. But with respect to him, he is terrible at aikido. That's why his style doesn't work. One of the core principles in aikido is tai sabaki, or body movement. Basically about always positioning yourself in a way that evades or merges with the opponent, rather than directly opposing. This guy does do this.

He also isn't comparing apples for apples. Aikido was never developed for sport. It is simply not designed for the classic scenario of two fighters square up for head to head fighting. It is designed for self defence against a civilian aggressor. Not a trained combat sport fighter. Of course that's not an excuse. Most casual amateur karateka or kung fu practitioners or even your casual 4 hours per week muay thai office worker guy will get knacked by someone who routinely competes. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with they style. It just depends what you're training for and how much you train. If you train for the ring, you'll do OK in the ring. If you train to win trophies for kata, you'll do alright at kata. The trouble with Aikido is that because it's about real self defence, you can't really practice it for real with measurable benchmarks in your goals. The MMA guy can test himself regularly in the ring, to see how he does in the ring. The person who competes in kata can get critical feedback from competition. The person that trains for self defence can't really go round goading random strangers into swinging a bat at them, so it's hard for them to measure themselves. So some step out of their comfort zone into someone else's. The results are invariably the same. The person that has trained for the ring defeats the person that has trained for something else, and then we all applaud MMA as the most effective style.


That's my problem with the self defense angle of martial arts. I practice them because I like them and I have a deep appreciation for their technique and health benefits, but the problem with any discipline oriented towards self defense is that you cannot properly stress test many of the techniques.

A boxer actually practices trying to punch the opponent as hard as he can, while also trying not to get punched. A Muay Thai is truly throwing his best kicks.

But one cannot grab a club or glass bottle and just swing it full force against an uke. The uke cannot really just grab your wrist and flip you aikido style full force because he will probably break the attacker's wrist.

When people see aikido demonstrations and point out the fact that the ukes are flipping like in an action movie and that's unrealistic I always point out that the ukes HAVE to go with the throw, or else if they resist they could end with a broken limb. The downside is that stress testing will never be as realistic.

That is why I also have doubts about karate's ippon kumite when it comes to self defense applications, who punches in zen kutsu dachi in real life? ANd who will stay stationary after punching in so you can pull one of those takedowns?

I like Aikido, and I wouldn't mind knowing more about it, but that's because I like martial arts


I took aikido for a while because I was interested in learning more about our one step sparring, which I think might be what you call ipon kumite? Ie one attack, specific defence counter?

I really enjoyed it and was making good progress with it. It helped a lot with my tang soo do in that I became more relaxed and fluid in sparring, so I could see that aikido really does have value. Sadly class times changed and I could not longer get there on time after work, so I ended up quitting it. But I still keep the principles I learned.

With the one step sparring, I hear what you say. When I train with a suitably willing partner, I always try to toughen it up a bit. I will resist and attempt certain counters, if my partner is willing to train the same way. Unfortunately not all appreciate it. It is a little bit sad when you get a second dan grown man getting upset because he can't make something work against resistance after 2 or 3 attempts, but my view is if it doesn't work against resistance in the hall among friends, it's not going to work against resistance outside against people than genuinely want to hurt you and may be drunk or high and gave a high pain threshold and a touch of psychosis.
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karatepastor
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 16 Oct 2021
Posts: 20
Location: Naples, FL
Styles: Boxing, Karate, Jui Jitsu

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Like with many styles, I think Aikido can be great or not so great, depending on the instructor you get and the methods of teaching they use.

The biggest concern I have with Aikido is the amount of compliance given by uke when doing techniques. I understand the need to make sure training partners aren't broken, but the most common way I see it done is through the past of least resistance, and that is not how confrontations happen. I think that this issue could be dealt with best in tweaking the training methodology of most places. But like I said, it depends on the type of instructor and school one gets.


In my limited history with aikido thatís what I found. However, in their defense, many of those wrist techniques hold the real potential of breaking joints without compliance by uke.
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ďA kata is not fixed or immoveable. Like water, it's ever changing and fits itself to the shape of the vessel containing it. However, kata are not some kind of beautiful competitive dance, but a grand martial art of self-defense - which determines life and death.Ē

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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29543
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karatepastor wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
Like with many styles, I think Aikido can be great or not so great, depending on the instructor you get and the methods of teaching they use.

The biggest concern I have with Aikido is the amount of compliance given by uke when doing techniques. I understand the need to make sure training partners aren't broken, but the most common way I see it done is through the past of least resistance, and that is not how confrontations happen. I think that this issue could be dealt with best in tweaking the training methodology of most places. But like I said, it depends on the type of instructor and school one gets.


In my limited history with aikido thatís what I found. However, in their defense, many of those wrist techniques hold the real potential of breaking joints without compliance by uke.


...sometimes. I've been on the other end of it at times, when there was no risk to me having anything broken, and I can either choose to roll with it for them, or just walk out of it.
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GS718Trek
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 152


PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I respect the use of Aikido, because I have actually witnessed it used effectively in a real situation against a "BIG" opponent, which happened to be a patient at a psychiatric unit I worked for when I was a much younger gentlemen.

The unit had a heavy set Caribbean women who was very restless and hallucinating, because she would not let the medical staff approach her and check her daily blood sugar levels to inject her insulin. The nurses were smaller figured ladies, the males were half the pts size, and one day the patient went on a rampage and started being combative ( she started getting restless and hallucinating because her blood sugar levels were dangerously high according to the MD)

The staff had no choice but to call in a 51-50 as they couldn't subdue the pt because of her strength and size.

One officer came from the police department that looked like a senior, and looked 1/3 of the pts mass. I believed in my head there was no way this officer is going to be able to do anything to subdue this pt.

He had a very "confident look" on him as if it was just another day in the office. He then dawned some gloves, then approached the wild pt and spoke with her to relax and comply with his instructions so they may take her to the nearest hospital for evaluation. She then swung her fist and the officer caught it swiftly and applied a wristlock that totally dropped the pt to the floor in submission while the officer was standing tall, she stayed there not willing to move in inch while the officer keep the lock applied.

Me, not knowing martial arts at the time, was completely amazed on how a small technique brought down a HUGE individual into submission. I ll have to admit, the officer had a look as if it was nothing to him and that he has done it million times.

Looking back at it now.. It was plain old Aikido in motion being utilized in the way it was meant to be
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15925
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GS718Trek wrote:
I respect the use of Aikido, because I have actually witnessed it used effectively in a real situation against a "BIG" opponent, which happened to be a patient at a psychiatric unit I worked for when I was a much younger gentlemen.

The unit had a heavy set Caribbean women who was very restless and hallucinating, because she would not let the medical staff approach her and check her daily blood sugar levels to inject her insulin. The nurses were smaller figured ladies, the males were half the pts size, and one day the patient went on a rampage and started being combative ( she started getting restless and hallucinating because her blood sugar levels were dangerously high according to the MD)

The staff had no choice but to call in a 51-50 as they couldn't subdue the pt because of her strength and size.

One officer came from the police department that looked like a senior, and looked 1/3 of the pts mass. I believed in my head there was no way this officer is going to be able to do anything to subdue this pt.

He had a very "confident look" on him as if it was just another day in the office. He then dawned some gloves, then approached the wild pt and spoke with her to relax and comply with his instructions so they may take her to the nearest hospital for evaluation. She then swung her fist and the officer caught it swiftly and applied a wristlock that totally dropped the pt to the floor in submission while the officer was standing tall, she stayed there not willing to move in inch while the officer keep the lock applied.

Me, not knowing martial arts at the time, was completely amazed on how a small technique brought down a HUGE individual into submission. I ll have to admit, the officer had a look as if it was nothing to him and that he has done it million times.

Looking back at it now.. It was plain old Aikido in motion being utilized in the way it was meant to be

Thank you for sharing that story, GS718Trek.



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aurik
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 316
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many moons ago, I studied aiki-jujutsu, which is nominally a predecessor to aikido. They key (fundamental) difference between aikido and the aiki-jujutsu I studied is the concept of the stun.

Short version: When defending against an attack, your first move consists of a strike to give you a half-second or so to perform your lock or throw. I've seen other advanced aikidoka who have mentioned that very same concept.

My understanding of aikido is that it generally assumes a willing (or at least non-resistant) attacker. A quick strike to the face or solar plexus can turn most untrained attackers into a willing subject -- for at least a half-second or so.
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Wayofaswede
Orange Belt
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Joined: 16 Jan 2017
Posts: 201
Location: Sweden
Styles: Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iíll just throw in a number of positives that I carry with me from my Aikido training to my current Karate training:
- Breathing
- Timing
- Importance of connecting with the partner
- Ukemi
- Balance/Taking ukeís balance
- Swordlike strikes and visualizing the arm as a sword
- Some techniques
- Attacking with a purpose as uke
- Circular motions to get behind the opponent
- A familiarity with jo and bokken weapons will help when/if I add kobudo to my karate
- A sense of and strive for respect, sincerity etc in the dojo and when training, both during club sessions and solo

Have a great weekend all KF:ers


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The path so far: 3 kyu Karate (Shito-ryu), 3 kyu Aikido (Aikikai), 5 kyu Judo, 9 kyu Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

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