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Prototype
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:14 am    Post subject: American Kickboxers don't learn sweeps? Reply with quote

A user here claimed that above the waist american style kickboxers back in the day were at a disadvantage against pure boxers due to the rules prohibiting sweeps, but from my understanding, american kickboxer don't learn sweeps and other traditional martial arts stuff.

So let's set the record straight. THe ones who were surely at a disadvantage rules-wise was boxers..who had to face kicks.. Yet they dominated enough to have the rule set changed to 8 kick minimun per round
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Wado Heretic
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most early American Kick-Boxers came from a Competitive Kumite back-ground, which in 1960s/70s America, meant a format where sweeping and throwing were allowed. I would say, yes. Boxers were at a disadvantage in not having a kick offence, however, several elements made this a moot-point:

1. High Kicks to the head and body, are readily avoided with head-movement and body swaying; something boxers are skilled with. Thus, they entered the American Kick-Boxing ring with a defence against high kicks.

2. Clinch fighting was forbidden as it is in Boxing; thus, so were sweeps, and throws. Boxers did not need to learn to fight in the clinch.

3. With the clinch eliminated, and range control, still isolated to the use of head-movement, body swaying, and foot-work; high kicks were moot as a weapon, except as one of opportunity.

As such, American Kick-Boxing is Boxing with high-kicks. Therefore, boxers had significant success in American Kick-Boxing when it emerged in the 1970s. You can evade high-kicks with the same body movement you defend against punches with. This can even be seen in contemporary Muay Thai, and other kick-boxing bouts. Thus, boxing skill became the pre-dominant skill over a more rounded kick-boxing acumen.
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Prototype
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wado Heretic wrote:
Most early American Kick-Boxers came from a Competitive Kumite back-ground, which in 1960s/70s America, meant a format where sweeping and throwing were allowed. I would say, yes. Boxers were at a disadvantage in not having a kick offence, however, several elements made this a moot-point:

1. High Kicks to the head and body, are readily avoided with head-movement and body swaying; something boxers are skilled with. Thus, they entered the American Kick-Boxing ring with a defence against high kicks.

2. Clinch fighting was forbidden as it is in Boxing; thus, so were sweeps, and throws. Boxers did not need to learn to fight in the clinch.

3. With the clinch eliminated, and range control, still isolated to the use of head-movement, body swaying, and foot-work; high kicks were moot as a weapon, except as one of opportunity.

As such, American Kick-Boxing is Boxing with high-kicks. Therefore, boxers had significant success in American Kick-Boxing when it emerged in the 1970s. You can evade high-kicks with the same body movement you defend against punches with. This can even be seen in contemporary Muay Thai, and other kick-boxing bouts. Thus, boxing skill became the pre-dominant skill over a more rounded kick-boxing acumen.


So you don't think a pure boxer would have the advantage against a modern day Kickboxer in American Kickboxing rules if the bout was held today? That is to say KB purists with no Karate background.
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Prototype
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there any site that writes about the early kickboxing matches in America? I would like to know the level of the boxers who entered and the kickboxers.
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Prototype
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wado Heretic wrote:


1. High Kicks to the head and body, are readily avoided with head-movement and body swaying; something boxers are skilled with. Thus, they entered the American Kick-Boxing ring with a defence against high kicks.

n.


Don't you on the other hand run the risk of getting kicked in the head due to bobbing and weaving? Ducking into a kick? Even though knees aren't allowed you can still get caught by one when they attempt to throw a kick while you are bobbing and wearing. I always though head movement in boxing was a bad habit from not having to worry about kicks.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, risks are evident in any endeavor, bobbing and weaving is no exception. However, those who are much more aware, aka experienced, of that particular endeavor, are going to have much more success, in which, they're not going to walk into a mishap knee; they're much more aware of their immediate surroundings. That's not to say that the occasional mishaps don't ever occur; however, the risks are minimized considerably.



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobbing and weaving was a bad habit in Free-fighting in the early days; a lot of people had not adapted it to deal with the concerns of wrestling and kicking, but you see it a lot more today as coaches have gained more insight into the wrestling game. A bad habit was to bob and weave with out acknowledging the danger of that distance being closed ,or intercepted with a kick. Few people have that bad habit today.

In early American Kick-Boxing, and American Full-Contact Karate; the top fighters were largely from a competition kumite back-ground. For example Joe Lewis, or Bill Wallace; interestingly, both had a wrestling back-ground.

Just because of the rules; the better boxer has the advantage. So it I would give the edge to who ever has the better boxing acumen. If it was two boxers of equal skill; the one with the better kick acumen.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prototype wrote:
Is there any site that writes about the early kickboxing matches in America? I would like to know the level of the boxers who entered and the kickboxers.

There's these, and in no particular order, as to importance...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickboxing

http://archive.prokick.com/kickboxing/article/history-of-kickboxing/

http://www.angelfire.com/rings/kickboxing/kbhis.html

http://www.ideafit.com/fitness-articles/group-fitness/boxing-kickboxing

http://www.pka-kickboxing.com/pka-kickboxing-history.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Karate_Association

Hopefully, there's enough here to wet your whistle, or at least guide you towards what you're searching for.



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Prototype
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wado Heretic wrote:

Just because of the rules; the better boxer has the advantage. .


But you didn't adress the point I was making; A modern american kickboxer trains in the gym for american kickboxing rules only, nothing else. Yet you still think the american kickboxer has a disadvantage in his own rule set?


Last edited by Prototype on Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wado Heretic wrote:


In early American Kick-Boxing, and American Full-Contact Karate; the top fighters were largely from a competition kumite back-ground. For example Joe Lewis, or Bill Wallace; interestingly, both had a wrestling back-ground.
.


Joe Lewis trained boxing dedicately for a year under a former world champion and as a result had many KOs attributed to his boxing.
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