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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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I thought it was common knowledge that American kickboxing failed to make the best of both arts and that the boxing was/is vastly inferior to develop good hands. I mean the rules had to be changed to mandatory kicking per round because standard boxers entered and dominated early kickboxing events.
I will always put my money on a western boxer under american Kickboxing rules, all else equal. They will cut the distance and be superior in-fighters. |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Prototype wrote: |
I thought it was common knowledge that American kickboxing failed to make the best of both arts and that the boxing was/is vastly inferior to develop good hands. I mean the rules had to be changed to mandatory kicking per round because standard boxers entered and dominated early kickboxing events.
I will always put my money on a western boxer under american Kickboxing rules, all else equal. They will cut the distance and be superior in-fighters. |
Yeah I agree. Part of the problem was the inability to generate any power in kicks from a sideways stance. I think the "minimum kicks" rule is ridiculous. If someone can beat you using half the amount of tools that you are, hes significantly better and you shouldnt be winning.... |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| chrissyp wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| chrissyp wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| chrissyp wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
Meh, I mean its solid but there are pros and cons to every style.
Personally, the reason I see it doing well (from a small group of fighters...) in MMA is precisely because the people they're fighting have lousy muay thai.
Works like this- sideway stance gives you lots of mobility and speed at the expense of power. Many of the fighters in the UFC are boxers and not proficient at thai. It might be more appropriate to say those that have the muay thai skill set stand in such a way that they're unable to utilize their leg kicks....
So theres your problem- people trying to trade punches with a style (stance) that favors greater speed and mobility. These fighters found their niche- so many people stopped throwing kicks in MMA because wrestlers were willing to eat them for a takedown. Now you've got very mobile fighters that are making them pay the price....
Same thing that beats that game is the same thing that did it some 30 years ago..... |
That would be legs kicks i'm assuming? As that always been the achillies hill to american kickboxing. While the style does make using round house kicks more difficult, it DOES open up side kicks and side teeps and other kicks, like hook kick, which can be very powerful if done correctly |
Sure, just not as powerful as your classic thai roundhouse. Discussions over which is "better" is really a discussion on strategy.
The good thing about the sideways kicks is that they're fast at the expense of power- both to deliver and move afterwards. These fighters are usually out of the pocket quickly after they've hit their opponent, leaving very little in terms of a counter attack.
The good thing about the thai roundhouse is the commitment to the strike- it'll break whatever it hits- hands, arms, faces, legs- it represents a full committment to hitting your opponent. Thats the problem though- committment. Your typical MMA fighter will eat a leg kick to get a takedown because frankly its worth it.
So theres a triad now of A beat B B beats C, C beats A.... who you're fighting is going to determine what strategy may or may not be better. |
couldn't agree more. I've done Muay Thai as the majority of my martial arts training....The interest in American KB comes from learning shotokan at the recent and how well it can flow combined with traditional boxing, which gave me and insight and feeling for how KB works. |
Curious... what made you start shotokan? |
There was a lot of reasons...I wasn't able to train Muay Thai, and my friend who is a shotokan instructor offered to train me for free, if I would help out cross training her students in muay thai/help with the sparring, to mix it up.
One reason I took it up, was at the time I was focused on trying to fight MMA, and the thing I like about Shotokan, and the biggest interest point actually: The blocks. In boxing/muay thai, a lot of defense techniques are based/rely on gloves. I took interested in shotokan to learn defense techniques that would seem more suited for MMA/bareknuckle.
and its been good! Taught me a lot of new striking strategies, new techniques. A lot of the stuff is great, and can be used very well in full contact situation or MMA, but it requires some adjustment to make it more suited for such situations.
But it had a lot of similar fundimentals to boxing I found, with the stance, application of techniques. This is where I found interested in American kickboxing, from the similarties and how well i found it meshed. |
Who were you learning Muay thai from and how do they "rely" on the gloves for their defensive techniques? I'll offer a thought experiment:
These are two completely different statements:
Muay thai relies on using the gloves for blocks
My muay thai relies on using the gloves for blocks. |
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chrissyp
Orange Belt
Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 175
Styles: Muay Thai/ Shotokan
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| chrissyp wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| chrissyp wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| chrissyp wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
Meh, I mean its solid but there are pros and cons to every style.
Personally, the reason I see it doing well (from a small group of fighters...) in MMA is precisely because the people they're fighting have lousy muay thai.
Works like this- sideway stance gives you lots of mobility and speed at the expense of power. Many of the fighters in the UFC are boxers and not proficient at thai. It might be more appropriate to say those that have the muay thai skill set stand in such a way that they're unable to utilize their leg kicks....
So theres your problem- people trying to trade punches with a style (stance) that favors greater speed and mobility. These fighters found their niche- so many people stopped throwing kicks in MMA because wrestlers were willing to eat them for a takedown. Now you've got very mobile fighters that are making them pay the price....
Same thing that beats that game is the same thing that did it some 30 years ago..... |
That would be legs kicks i'm assuming? As that always been the achillies hill to american kickboxing. While the style does make using round house kicks more difficult, it DOES open up side kicks and side teeps and other kicks, like hook kick, which can be very powerful if done correctly |
Sure, just not as powerful as your classic thai roundhouse. Discussions over which is "better" is really a discussion on strategy.
The good thing about the sideways kicks is that they're fast at the expense of power- both to deliver and move afterwards. These fighters are usually out of the pocket quickly after they've hit their opponent, leaving very little in terms of a counter attack.
The good thing about the thai roundhouse is the commitment to the strike- it'll break whatever it hits- hands, arms, faces, legs- it represents a full committment to hitting your opponent. Thats the problem though- committment. Your typical MMA fighter will eat a leg kick to get a takedown because frankly its worth it.
So theres a triad now of A beat B B beats C, C beats A.... who you're fighting is going to determine what strategy may or may not be better. |
couldn't agree more. I've done Muay Thai as the majority of my martial arts training....The interest in American KB comes from learning shotokan at the recent and how well it can flow combined with traditional boxing, which gave me and insight and feeling for how KB works. |
Curious... what made you start shotokan? |
There was a lot of reasons...I wasn't able to train Muay Thai, and my friend who is a shotokan instructor offered to train me for free, if I would help out cross training her students in muay thai/help with the sparring, to mix it up.
One reason I took it up, was at the time I was focused on trying to fight MMA, and the thing I like about Shotokan, and the biggest interest point actually: The blocks. In boxing/muay thai, a lot of defense techniques are based/rely on gloves. I took interested in shotokan to learn defense techniques that would seem more suited for MMA/bareknuckle.
and its been good! Taught me a lot of new striking strategies, new techniques. A lot of the stuff is great, and can be used very well in full contact situation or MMA, but it requires some adjustment to make it more suited for such situations.
But it had a lot of similar fundimentals to boxing I found, with the stance, application of techniques. This is where I found interested in American kickboxing, from the similarties and how well i found it meshed. |
Who were you learning Muay thai from and how do they "rely" on the gloves for their defensive techniques? I'll offer a thought experiment:
These are two completely different statements:
Muay thai relies on using the gloves for blocks
My muay thai relies on using the gloves for blocks. |
They gloves to catch attack and uses them for blocks. I've trained at many places, but my main instructor who taught me the most Muay Thai is guy named Neal Rowe, out of Sacan Martial arts in Cincinnati Ohio. He was rich Franklins muay thai coach and he's trained just about every fighter that made it big in Cincinnati just about. He's Kru under a thai fighter named Saekson JanJira
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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For my 2cents worth, being introduced to Kickboxing in the 70s. Kickboxing was just a natural progression up from solely using fists in gloves.
Kickboxing was also called full contact karate.
Tournaments that held boxing could easily add some kickboxing to the card. As my Sensei in Shotokan could also be a boxer one weekend and a kickboxer the next.
It is perhaps easy to criticize kickboxing from today's perspective (30 or 40 years later) but in it's day it was very exiting to watch for its simplicity, artistry and sportsmanship.
Whereas Muay Thai Boxing back then, was a far away sport, that was dangerous due to be able to use knees and elbows; that if used against the opponent's temple can kill; to create rules that can kill another person is hardly something to call a "sport" when the fighters fought to eat; from a very young age, something in the West would be called child abuse.
Going beyond kickboxing might be a natural progression but I see it as a major health risk for many martial artists in the short and long run.
Many wrestlers due to the hard knocks can end up coming addicted to pain killers something their (cousins) MMA pros can look forward to also.
Today's MMA craze goes far beyound the throwback time of the washed up boxers that ended up with brain damage and speech impediments for their efforts; history has a way of repeating itself; this time it has out dun itself. |
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Drew
Orange Belt
Joined: 28 Sep 2011
Posts: 189
Location: My other body
Styles: Boxing, Muay Thai, Sub Wrestling, Tai Chi, MMA, Medieval, Extreme Reaction Combat Scenarios (This is not a drill) Judo, formerly Mishima Style Karate
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
For my 2cents worth, being introduced to Kickboxing in the 70s. Kickboxing was just a natural progression up from solely using fists in gloves.
Kickboxing was also called full contact karate.
Tournaments that held boxing could easily add some kickboxing to the card. As my Sensei in Shotokan could also be a boxer one weekend and a kickboxer the next.
It is perhaps easy to criticize kickboxing from today's perspective (30 or 40 years later) but in it's day it was very exiting to watch for its simplicity, artistry and sportsmanship.
Whereas Muay Thai Boxing back then, was a far away sport, that was dangerous due to be able to use knees and elbows; that if used against the opponent's temple can kill; to create rules that can kill another person is hardly something to call a "sport" when the fighters fought to eat; from a very young age, something in the West would be called child abuse.
Going beyond kickboxing might be a natural progression but I see it as a major health risk for many martial artists in the short and long run.
Many wrestlers due to the hard knocks can end up coming addicted to pain killers something their (cousins) MMA pros can look forward to also.
Today's MMA craze goes far beyound the throwback time of the washed up boxers that ended up with brain damage and speech impediments for their efforts; history has a way of repeating itself; this time it has out dun itself. |
I like fighting mma and muay thai, it may be dangerous but so is skydiving. I've been hurt worse on a mulched playground than I ever have on canvas. |
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skullsplitter
Orange Belt
Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 171
Styles: shotokan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| What's the difference between 'American Kickboxing' and what they do in Glory and Bellator Kickboxing? |
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 676
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:51 am Post subject: |
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The first art I studied was American Kickboxing under a guy named Derrel Hollins in California. The first thing is that it’s actually Karate and similar Arts like TKD and so on, mixed with boxing. To this day it is the core of my personal style and the way I would fight, with this type of striking. This is probably why I place much more emphasis on sparring vs self defense drills for fighting.
Just a few days ago I watched a fight with Superfoot Bill vs Ray Mcallem. These guys were so tough and again, this style of “fighting” is more appealing to me as I believe striking to be the most effective (aside from grappling) and weighing striking against wrist locks and so on.
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Hustle and hard work are a substitute for talent! |
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 676
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| skullsplitter wrote: |
| What's the difference between 'American Kickboxing' and what they do in Glory and Bellator Kickboxing? |
Most KB nowadays is a hybrid variant of Muay Thai. It’s essentially been adapted in ways to accommodate MMA in the sense of stances, some hand positions and so on.
American Kickboxing was guys that used Karate/Taekwondo kicks and essentially western boxing up top.
In today’s KB fighters typically take a step to use lead roundhouse kicks or what is called a switch kick. Typically in older American Kickboxing because of their traditional martial arts background they did them just like Karate/TKD practicioners Do today, straight from the guard. Also today’s fighters stand (typically) much more square, American Kb guys because of their traditional art backgrounds stood much more sideways. This is obviously more similar to sparring in Arts like Karate for obvious reasons as they practiced these arts.
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Hustle and hard work are a substitute for talent! |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| Luther unleashed wrote: |
The first art I studied was American Kickboxing under a guy named Derrel Hollins in California. The first thing is that it’s actually Karate and similar Arts like TKD and so on, mixed with boxing. To this day it is the core of my personal style and the way I would fight, with this type of striking. This is probably why I place much more emphasis on sparring vs self defense drills for fighting.
Just a few days ago I watched a fight with Superfoot Bill vs Ray Mcallem. These guys were so tough and again, this style of “fighting” is more appealing to me as I believe striking to be the most effective (aside from grappling) and weighing striking against wrist locks and so on. |
I would dispute calling it boxing.. The arm techniques are boxing but not the stances. The label is a bit ubfortunate |
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on the post.
