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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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 Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Isn't grappling an anti stand up fighting style? |
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Tempest
Green Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 424
Location: Dallas
Styles: Judo, HEMA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Isn't grappling an anti stand up fighting style? |
Not really. Look at police defensive tactics for an example. A great deal of that is standing grapples to move people in to positions you want them to be in. Grapplers TEND to take fights to the ground because it benefits us to do so. Or things just happen that way sometimes. Or we get knocked down, or taken down by surprise. Grappling, per se, is a skill set, not really even a style and it is a skill set that can be employed in a variety of contexts. If, for example, in some mythical ridiculous scenario, I HAD to fight multiple opponents, and I HAD to do it using only my hands, before I died or ran, it would probably not look that much different to a sort of brutal Aikido demo. The issue people tend to have with a lot, not all, but a lot of stand-up striking styles is the tendency to rely on this idea that they can "Jist hit 'em" or they rely on an unrealistic expectation of striking accuracy and power while you are moving and the target is moving. And what we have seen, over and over again, is that it just doesn't work that way consistently. Usually what happens is that first shot misses, and as a result, if the target is aggressive and moving toward you, grappling happens. What you do from there is up to you, but as I and others on here have recommended, if you REALLY want to have something you can do once grappling happens, you need to learn to grapple skillfully.
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Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Many martial art stand up styles are alot like cars, they might look very much alike from the outside but under the hood the engines are very different; transmissions and steering mechanism are also different.
Could take this car metaphor a little further with the front wheel drive and rear wheel drive, not forgetting the 4X4's.
Martial art styles have become more mechanical, this is the reason why grappling has become more successful.
We in this modern age live in a minimal or none touch society, grappling on the other hand is very close to intimate fighting.
Another metaphor using the game of chess. Some chess games use a clock to add up the seconds in case of a draw, this is stand up style fighting for a quick win with a knockout efficiency.
Whereas grappling is a chess game of taking one's time (without a time limit) by removing the opponent's options piece by piece till there is nothing left only hopelessness to forfeit.
What I find fascinating is that contemporary grapplers tend to think that they have invented something new, whereas I believe them to have found something old.
There is absolutely nothing new under the sun concerning martial arts, only the cooking recipes have changed.
We still have all the same human body parts to use as we had thousands of years be fore us.
Concerning the stand up styles, they will need to eventually look very far back in time to find the lost art of stand up fighting, as it wasn't mechanical at all but instead energy based connected with the virtues of nature.
Grappling is closer to the energy connection with nature than stand up fighters are. Nothing wrong with stand up fighting styles just that they need to change or modify their engines to fit the demands of this 21st Century contemporary race track.
As some stand up fighters are aware of keeping their balance while standing and belive that they have no balance when on the ground fighting, while the grappler is trying to not get knocked out while getting the opponent on the ground to control their hips, in the strategy to get an arm lock or choke hold...
As this is being played out I hear commands given by the grappling coach "yes, yes, that's right, take your time, yes that's right" seems that grapplers have an an added advantage by listening to their master's voice.
While the stand up fighter's coach throws in the towel! |
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Tempest
Green Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 424
Location: Dallas
Styles: Judo, HEMA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Grappling is closer to the energy connection with nature than stand up fighters are. Nothing wrong with stand up fighting styles just that they need to change or modify their engines to fit the demands of this 21st Century contemporary race track. |
I am not sure I agree with this entirely. It seems to me that the main thing is to understand the physical dynamic of what happens in a fight. Now, like with all chaotic systems, there are very few hard and fast absolutes. That being said, if we limit ourselves from what is POSSIBLE in a fight to what is PROBABLE, then we start to see where the training methodologies, strategies, techniques and conditioning of solid grapplers give them an advantage. No, it is not new, and none of us think it is, but it has not always been explored in the same context and to the same depth.
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Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused. |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| The advantage in a nutshell, grapplers tend to be more in the now during a fight and stand up fighters tend not to be so fortunate due to very different training methods. |
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Tempest
Green Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 424
Location: Dallas
Styles: Judo, HEMA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Ehh, not entirely. If that were true, you would see the grapplers advantage dwindle more with someone like a skilled boxer who is used to trading punches. But, unless that boxer is also trained in grappling, the advantage does not go away. The only thing that REALLY takes the advantage away is one super secret that most grapplers know: It is easier to defend than attack in grappling. Now, what does that mean? It means that, for example, someone who has say blue-purple belt BJJ, but can eat golden gloves champs for lunch on his feet, is going to be able to give even the best grapplers a VERY rough day. But the key is, you must have at least that fundamental grappling skill and practice it.
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Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused. |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| I thought the secret for grapplers was to control the none grappling opponent's hips. |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| I thought the secret for grapplers was to control the none grappling opponent's hips. |
You got it!
But to be fair sometimes you have to do this in an indirect manner....
Also, plenty of people can say "you're supposed to kill the hips" but cant actually do it either.... |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not a grappler in the sense of specializing in horizontal fighting methodologies but I do understand from a Chin Na perspective that where the head goes the body will follow.
I find this controlling the opponent's head to be very effective and also a very dangerous practice.
It is noticeable that grapplers try to keep their head close to the opponent's body as it is more difficult to stike and control when positioned this way.
Also grapplers tend to be using a method of using more body contact the better, in such a way that limits the opponent's options for techniques, using a few obvious wild animal tactics similar to a 'Boa Constrictor' and a 'Monkey on my back' combined with some 'Alligator wrangling' |
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on the post.
