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LastKing
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Joined: 07 May 2015
Posts: 69


PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:15 am    Post subject: Anyone recognise any of these katas? Reply with quote

As you may or may not remember, I've been trying to track down these kata for a long time now, but can't seem to find them anywhere. They are known in the club as:

Kenkasho
https://facebook.com/kernowkarateexeter/videos/1466254470119881/


Kenkasho here is at about 4.36. Kintano at 5.08, and Pinan Sandan at 6.10:
https://youtu.be/maY58JXLxZM

I've seen plenty of youtube videos on Pinan sandan, but it bears no resemblance to these.

Any comments gratefully received.
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JR 137
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Joined: 10 May 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theyíre not any traditional kata that Iíve ever seen. They appear to be kata most likely developed by someone within that specific organization/school. Thatís most likely why youíre not finding anything about them beyond videos made/posted by that school.

Thereís nothing wrong with that if you know why they teach them and youíre ok with their reasons. If youíre looking for traditional kata, Iím quite sure this isnít what youíre looking for.

Iíve got no problem with kata developed by someone recently. Our founder has made a few of his own. Theyíre in line with everything else we do and donít seem like something thrown together just to look cool. Theyíre not my favorite kata and I could just as easily do without them and/or replace them with traditional kata, but I enjoy one or two of them that I know. We do far more traditional kata (as in number of kata) than just the ones developed by our founder. The traditional ones we do are popular ones found elsewhere and are very close to Kyokushinís version of them.
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LastKing
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that. Am I right in thinking that if anyone wanted to compete in outside kata competition, it would have to be with a recognized kata?
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Wado Heretic
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Joined: 23 May 2014
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Location: United Kingdom, England, Shropshire
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenkasho appears to have elements taken from Kuskanku, Unsu, and Wanshu. Kintano, on the other hand, appears to take primarily from Kushanku with elements from Fyukyugata/Gekisai or Kururunfa.

Both display the issues of creativity I expect from newly developed kata. Non-combative movements such as the fall back onto the side, the roll across the stomach, and the kneeling punches in Kenkasho. Too many movements being done on the spot in a posture not suitable for the techniques being done, standing and moving to face opposing sides, and moving from one posture into a mirror of the same posture in Kintano.

The names are also functionally nonsense, even to an absolute amateur in Japanese such as myself. Kenka, broadly speaking, can mean fighting or brawling, and Sho in the context of martial arts practice is usually used as Beginning. Thus, Kenka Sho could be transliterated as Fighting Beginning or the Beginning of the Fighting, but Kenkasho as a compound phrase is nonsensical. Kintano appears to me like someone heard the myth of Kintaro and changed the Ro to No. Which changes the meaning from Gold, Fat Son, to Gold, Fat My, presuming we use No as a possessive. Could also be Gold, Fat Of if we used the older meaning.

All the evidence points to these Forms being created specifically for this particular branch of the Karate tree. Would I consider them worthy of study from what I watched? In all honesty, no: I would advise one goes study the original kata from which these forms borrow heavily. I would replace Kenkasho with Unsu, and if you have time to practice Kintano you have the time practice Kushanku. Mostly because more people practice said kata, and you will have more luck finding resources to help you improve, and get a deeper understanding of the kata. Also, I fear from what I have seen that both of those forms encourage unsound ways of moving in actual physical combat.

Generally, when it comes to unusual versions of the Pinan I usually suspect reverse engineering from the Cat Kata of Nick Cerio's Kempo Karate, or the Pinion Forms of Shaolin Kempo Karate or Kajukenbo. I must say I have never seen that form, never mind seen something like that called Pinan Sandan.

None of this is a remark against the system of Kernow Karate in general, just these particular kata. Regarding the system as a whole, it is very much the general Middle of the Road Karate I see in most of the United Kingdom. The people in the video seem to deeply enjoy their practice, and that is what matters at the end of the day.

Edit: What sort of Form competition you enter will depend on the kata you can submit. The WKF and associated groups have moved away from the Shi-tei Kata, which were mandatory qualifying kata every competitor had to perform. They were controversial for being from Shotokan, Wado-Ryu, Goju-Ryu, and Shi-te-Ryu alone, meaning if you did not practice one of these styles you would have to learn a shi-tei kata from one of these systems to simply compete. They may be gone, however, the WKF does still have a list of recognised kata which must still be adhered to.

You could enter such Forms in an Open-Style competition, just make sure to enter the right sort. Free-Style often includes a lot of "tricking" even if the forms are based on traditional ones. Extreme Martial Arts, or XMA, incorporates acrobatics and gymnastics and focuses very much on showmanship.

I should also explain what I mean by the middle of the road. What I mean is three K karate that does Bunkai and Bukiwaza. It does not seem to be a form of Jissen Karate as propagated by Abernathy and that ilk. A form of Koshiki Karate as from Okinawa. A form of Kenka Karate as Kyokushin and its descendants are. Nor Shiai Karate which emphasises competition as is promoted by the WKF.
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LastKing
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Joined: 07 May 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that. I appreciate the input and the advice on kata. And thanks for the input on the club. It's one I've taken over and is in process of a damn good shake up. One of those things being kata. The trouble is, we only have six, and I suspect they are all invented.
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Age-Uke
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Joined: 11 Feb 2019
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wado Heretic wrote:
Kenkasho appears to have elements taken from Kuskanku, Unsu, and Wanshu. Kintano, on the other hand, appears to take ...... etc


I agree 100%

Kata is the soul of Karate. But people take that message in the wrong direction, I was taught and still follow a very traditional Shotokan Karate, only Funakoshi Osensei original Kata are my staples. Myself personally, I haven't found a need for any more.

Learning a Kata that wasn't founded in reality? IMO Big no no...

People get caught up in learning kata, thinking that is or leads to mastery.
We know it does not. (or should know)

When people understand THERE IS NO BASIC KATA, they should understand they should be doubling down on their Kata Bunkai to learn Oyo (Omote, Ura or Honto) doesn't matter, as long as it's effective.

Just like a judo-ka or jujitsu-ka (who have never wavered in the prowess means everything ) they better be breaking their kata down application by application, drilling the Oyo and ramping up the force and resistance.. Just like Judo... just like Jujitsu. That's why those arts are as effective as they are
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watched both video links provided in the OP, each several times, and to me, quite honestly, I still have not even a minimum of an idea what any of it is!!



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LastKing
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, that's how I've grown to view much of the syllabus.
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