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jaypo
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 26 Apr 2012
Posts: 520

Styles: Shotokan, Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We do this drill frequently where we perform a kata, then line up 4 students around 1 student. The 4 then attack as per the kata, and the "victim" is supposed to apply the techniques from the kata. However, if it is a kyu level "victim", he/she is expected to apply basic kata techniques. If he goes purely on instinct, he isn't fussed as long as the tecnhique works. If it is a dan level "victim", he/she is encouraged to "put himself/herself" into the technique I.E.- add a takedown, break, finishing technique to the kata technique. They are not discouraged if the techniques are realistic and effective.

I was in the middle last week, and I have a habit of resorting to instinct! I was attacked and told to apply Naifanchi counters adding leg techniques. However, I am about 6'00 and 192lbs. Everyone else was far shorter and smaller. For me to get in the effective range with Naifanchi tecnhiques, it was easier for me, as the larger, stronger person, to counter and sweep/takedown the attackers rather than kick.

The point is that a good instructor will create drills/applications that will at least get the students familiar with what takes place on the street. I say that you can never be prepared 100% for an ambush, but you can at least be familiar with some scenarios from these drills.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27944
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree with Alex on this issue. It should not take a lot of years or time in to learn how to begin defending yourself effectively. That is not to say that the study of any Martial Art shouldn't be a lifelong journey; I think we all appreciate the fact that it is a lifelong journey. But learning to defend oneself should start on day one, and it should continue throughout.
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Safroot
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 911
Location: Sydney, Australia
Styles: Kyokushin

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CredoTe wrote:
Zaine wrote:
To quote a wise jedi master:

Yoda wrote:
"Do, or do not. There is not try."



For instance, when we show beginners our first kata, we make sure that at least 2 to 3 waza (series of techniques) in the kata makes fighting sense (applications) to them before teaching anything else to them. This gives even our beginner students a few tools to put in their self-defense toolbox. Some can only wrap their heads around 1 waza, some understand more than 3; just depends.



Totally agree with you and lucky me ... my instructor is giving me application for every single punch, block, kick and stance and he practice the application with me
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Safroot
Pre-Black Belt
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Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 911
Location: Sydney, Australia
Styles: Kyokushin

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tallgeese wrote:
This is a great topic and one not talked about enough in martial arts circles. Let me start by saying Harkon has a point. Freezing can always occur. However, the way we train can greatly affect our mitigation of this and we can indeed mitigate it.

One of the things to think about is building spontaneous threat responses. It's basically stimulus response training. You need to build into this by taking basic movements of your system and building them against more and more realistic threats. This lets you work from a technical pace to an actual adrenaline response to aggression.

For me, this means taking simple movements that are at the core of your art and stripping away anything that is not effective and efficient under combat duress. If you're not sure what those movements are, you will find them as you move into higher levels of spontaneous training against resistive partners.

I agree to a certain extent, time is always a factor. Of course, time on task will always make skill sets better and more time of good training is better. That said, I can be in a situation that requires live saving aggression tomorrow. Years of sorting thru theoretical tactics or decrypting kata is can just push competence out to years to reach. By stripping down movements to efficient training patterns, you can start to make this path quicker.

Of course, pure self defense mightn ot be your sole goal. If it's not, then certainly you may not want to do this. Or you might do an art for multiple reasons, self defense being only part of why you train. In that case, you'll want to balance your training to include both. But you need to take a bit of time sort out what's the most important factors for your training.

Study the OODA loop and learn how to manipulate it to your benefit. This starts with better observational skills. On the topic of learning, read on physiological effects of real combat. Grossman, Siddel, Miller, ect. Studies show that the more you intellectually understand these changes the better prepared you are to successfully deal with them.

Train under increasing pressure. This does not mean heavy contact all the time, but you'll need to from time to time. It also means scenario based training. Once you've looked at the tools you want to drill, drill them with increasing realism, and dealt with some contact, then you're ready to go. Set up situations that you might come under fire in.

Bear in mind, most of these will be ambushes of some sort. That means that you're not in a fighting stance, you're standing at an ATM, getting in a car, or otherwise occupied while you get blindsided by the initial attack. This can be truly surprising for many artist. But time spent in this sort of situational training can really cut down on the surprise factor you feel the first time your body has to deal with the real stress of a fight.

This is how we start to build "pre combat veterans" a term coined by Grossman. Essentially, it means that we're programming in the sorts of responses that people who have been there done that develop and get rookies to perform that way. To do that you have to start being stressed when you train.

Let's concede, no amount of training will perfectly simulate this. But you can design training to mimic, and this can go a long way on the street in your first combat.

Once you start getting competent with the types of drills we're talking about, try adding a time component. Set up a focus mitt drill to control but mandate control occur in 10 seconds, then 7, then 5, ect. All sorts of simple changes in drills can add stress. Shut the lights off. Add music. Strobing lights. Put them all together.

Another avenue that gets overlooked is to compete. In contact events. MMA is great for this because it mandates a wide array of tactics. No, it's not a real fight, but it mimics several aspects of one and will generally be unfamiliar. This is all stress educing and can be VERY beneficial into preparing you for dealing with your first live encounter with no rules or ref.

So yes, you can take your art and greatly enhance your ability to use it under fight duress. But it takes some specialized adjustments to do it quickly.

Let me know if you've got any specific training design questions.


Very solid post , thanks
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jaypo
Purple Belt
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Joined: 26 Apr 2012
Posts: 520

Styles: Shotokan, Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An example of this subject came up last week with me. In our club, our Sensei has created several katas based on his training styles. When I joined this club, there were 2 others that joined around the same time that have progressed to Shodan level. From the time we became Shodans, he has created a kata specific to each of us based on our "styles" within his system. For example, the female BB uses quick counters very well, so her kata is based on blocks and quick reverse strikes. The other guy likes to use his legs and unorthodox angles, so his kata is based on a lot of kicking techniques from 45 degree angles. I prefer powerful techniques, so my kata (which I just learned last week) includes a lot of Muay Thai type strikes- jabs, kicks, elbows, and knees). And it's an honor to have a kata designed for you.

But the point of this rant is that from the beginning of class, Shands Sensei just had us doing drills of certain sequences of blocks/counters in a self defense format. After we did them all, he showed us the kata, and it was exactly the drills we just spent an hour on.
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lowereastside
Orange Belt
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Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 211

Styles: kung fu

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:54 pm    Post subject: Applying Self Defense Techniques !! Reply with quote

I've heard and read stories of individuals been able to defend themselves after only one class or a few classes of self -defense - A poke in the eye ............... Again this is what I've heard and read. There are also many legal issues involved - I'm not an Attorney - and many will say I would rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6. I personally don't like to use the word Self Defense - but that's me. Combative is the word that I like to use - but again that's me and the mind-set of the Kung -Fu that I teach. I teach MA's step by step - the more advanced one becomes the more pressure is put on the individual. Example - a few years back I had this individual come watch a couple of my classes - this person 6.5 feet 300lbs was a NYC Police Officer - Bouncer.............oh he also held an 8th Dan in Karate and 10 years of Judo under his belt. His grip was that I did not have Sparring in my Class. I told him that while I've done my share of Sparring in the past Boxing/Karate- It is not what I teach - but he did not understand what the heck I was talking about. I finally took one of my advanced students - and said to the student - lets show him what we do - and we briefly go at it - and I mean GO AT IT. When we finished I looked at the Big Guy - and the look on his face was priceless. And he says you guys looked like you were actually fighting for real - that's crazy. Then he say's why don't you use protective equipment. I informed the Big Guy that sometimes we do but by using the equipment it kind of takes the edge off. Then the Big Guy say's I not doing that - that's just plain crazy. I informed him he is a long way of doing that type of training. What impressed him more is that we were actually using the art we practice and not just kickboxing - that he took notice of. He joined for awhile but did not have the patience - Jook Lum Mantis is not a easy Fix its a step by step climbing up the ladder kind of thing. example when training the hand - each element of the hand must be trained - each finger - the palm - the edge of the hand - the back of the hand - the wrist and so on...............and herbal medicine must be used - today many of the old ways are being lost - and I understand - Job - Family - Internet......... So the quick fix is in - likes 15 self defense classes will put you on your way - and I guess its better then nothing. Let me stop - like my Wife say's your just going to get yourself in trouble.
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2208
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Takes time and you still can freeze up in a real situation.

In terms of getting better at it in safe situation you fights where anything can happen. say having 3 on 1 or 4 on 1 and having them pressure you as much as possible. Even then that can't prepare you completely for a real self defense situation, because of the unpredictability of those assailants.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14618
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex and Brian, as current LEO's...

How do academies and training officers deal with brand new officers from freezing up?? A LEO's very first occurrence might be quite unnerving, but workable, I suppose. What, if any, do departments have in place as far as corrective measures to lessen and/or rid of said unfavorable possibilities??



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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Alex and Brian, as current LEO's...

How do academies and training officers deal with brand new officers from freezing up?? A LEO's very first occurrence might be quite unnerving, but workable, I suppose. What, if any, do departments have in place as far as corrective measures to lessen and/or rid of said unfavorable possibilities??


Great question, Bob. At our academy, we have a "survival week" towards the end of the academy. It entails a lot of simunitions drills, which means everyone is getting shot at, essentially. You wear protective gear, and you get right down into the thick of things. Active shooter scenarios, traffic stops that go bad, etc. Our department does this kind of training regularly, as well. Its very valuable training. Loads of fun, too.
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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It takes as long as it takes to use what you have learned for self defense. You may feel like it's not happening quick enough but like all things it takes time. You are rewiring your MA muscles to your brain, neuromuscular connections or something like that. So you can move think and react like a martial artist. Coordinating your 600 muscles, more or less to work in unison. So one day in the future you will walk along the street with confidence, the confidence earned from daily martial art practice.
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