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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Are there mutiple forms of kata with same name? Reply with quote

LastKing wrote:
None of the katas my club practice bear even the slightest resemblance to those which appear on youtube. All the videos online seem the same. Ours are totally different. Are there markedly different versions of, say, Pinan Nidan, or is Pinan Nidan basically Pinan Nidan?


If you train in a style like Shotokan Pinan Shodan is Pinan Nidan and vice versa.

If you train in an Okinawan style Pinan Shodan is Pinan Shodan and Pinan Nidan is Pinan Nidan.

The reason... Pinan Shodan is viewed as more difficult than Nidan and thus they swapped the order.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
LastKing wrote:
Thanks guys,
Our style, well, that's a tricky one. We have no definitive style but practice some kihon in shotokan, some in a shorter, western fighting stance (the more I see, the more I think we're like the instuctor's personal JKD project, just passed off as traditional, transferrable karate).
Our katas, though, are practiced in Shotokan.
No videos, I'm affraid, but our Pinan Nidan starts in cat, does a double lateral block, sweeps the hands as if unwinding a throat grab, then a push away, repeat other way, then advancing short cat with bock x3, ino to zen stance to right with a double lateral ridge hand block which exchanges, then a front kick, swap to other side and repeat, then turn, outer block and punch x3, horse stance, side kick and upward backfist, same other side, turn, downward block , side kick, low spinning sweep and zen with punch to ground.
Sorry for not knowing the Japanese for the blocks, but we don't do Japanese (why would we, it's not like any other club does - sarcastic tone btw).
It's nothing like any Pinan Nidan, nor Pinan Shodan I can find on line.


The first half of it sounds like Pinan 2 from what you describe, but the ďdouble lateral ridge handĒ and on isnít anything Iíve come across. Is it possibly a Korean form?

Not to sound the wrong way, but Iíve seen videos of several Korean forms that seem like a mashup of Pinan katas of sorts. And is it possible that you were/are doing ďKorean karateĒ rather than Japanese or Okinawan karate? TKD and TSD have often been referred to as Korean karate. Again, itís not a knock on Korean arts at all, it just gets confusing to people sometimes.

Look up Korean forms online. You might come across it. I donít remember the names of them, but Iíve seen Korea forms videos that look quite a bit like re-worked Pinan and other Japanese/Okinawan kata.


Sounds like a culmination of Kata or as you say mashup. Definitely not the way we perform either Kata.
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LastKing
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 07 May 2015
Posts: 74


PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that, guys. Will check out the Korean katas.
BTW, oirs bears scant resemblance to the one in the link. Not even the initial block is the same.
But again, thanks.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
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Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually to answer the subject title of the post - Yes. Seisan would be just one example. Shuri-te, Tomari-Te and Naha-te all have versions and those have versions dependent upon the art.

Example; Goju-Ryu and Uechi-Ryu are performed differently but are both called Seisan. Conversely these versions are different from their counterparts in Shuri-Te and Tomari-Te.

So yes... a Kata can be of the same name but be completely different.

I know this was not the context of the post but the title made me click on the post so I thought I'd answer the title as well.
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Hoshin
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 11 Apr 2018
Posts: 32


PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LastKing wrote:
Thanks guys,
Our style, well, that's a tricky one. We have no definitive style but practice some kihon in shotokan, some in a shorter, western fighting stance (the more I see, the more I think we're like the instuctor's personal JKD project, just passed off as traditional, transferrable karate).
Our katas, though, are practiced in Shotokan.
No videos, I'm affraid, but our Pinan Nidan starts in cat, does a double lateral block, sweeps the hands as if unwinding a throat grab, then a push away, repeat other way, then advancing short cat with bock x3, ino to zen stance to right with a double lateral ridge hand block which exchanges, then a front kick, swap to other side and repeat, then turn, outer block and punch x3, horse stance, side kick and upward backfist, same other side, turn, downward block , side kick, low spinning sweep and zen with punch to ground.
Sorry for not knowing the Japanese for the blocks, but we don't do Japanese (why would we, it's not like any other club does - sarcastic tone btw).
It's nothing like any Pinan Nidan, nor Pinan Shodan I can find on line.


if your not sure of the name of your style,, its more than likely not a traditional style,,,,,so why would you expect to use traditional kata?
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14512
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man's creative, that's for sure. We like to reinvent the wheel so that it's either improved and/or it is their version.

I watched my daughter take a karate class, that wasn't Shindokan, the horror of it all, and to my amusement, as I watched them run through all of their kata's. Guess what I saw?? Every Shotokan Kata, however, with a one something or two added to each said kata's, with names like, Flying Dragon 1.

Interesting!!

Their founder has an extensive Kyokushin background, for what it's worth.



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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
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Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Man's creative, that's for sure. We like to reinvent the wheel so that it's either improved and/or it is their version.

I watched my daughter take a karate class, that wasn't Shindokan, the horror of it all, and to my amusement, as I watched them run through all of their kata's. Guess what I saw?? Every Shotokan Kata, however, with a one something or two added to each said kata's, with names like, Flying Dragon 1.

Interesting!!

Their founder has an extensive Kyokushin background, for what it's worth.




Funakoshi wrote all about the reasoning behind his naming of the forms. Apparently many of them were already known by several different names depending on who you asked and where they'd trained. More than that, many of the written names had several possible translations. Funakoshi chose the names based on his own interpretation of them. An example being pyung ahn which he renamed heian because pyung ahn doesn't translate as accurately and unambiguously as heian.

The point I'm trying to make is that the 'shotokan kata' are actually just forms adopted by Funakoshi when he set about packaging up and formalising karate. He didn't make them. The already existed. All with many variants and many names. So if someone wants to take the 'shotokan kata' and change a few bits and rename it, is that really what they are doing? Or are they looking at older/other interpretations that already existed in Funakoshi's day?

Even if they did take the shotokan ones and tweak them and rename them, is that such a bad thing? We have the same thing in TSD (although few will admit it). But because TSD likes to put more emphasis on kicks than anything else, some bits that started off as footwork or simply low kicks, suddenly became bigger kicks but otherwise it's the same forms.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14512
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: Are there mutiple forms of kata with same name? Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
LastKing wrote:
None of the katas my club practice bear even the slightest resemblance to those which appear on youtube. All the videos online seem the same. Ours are totally different. Are there markedly different versions of, say, Pinan Nidan, or is Pinan Nidan basically Pinan Nidan?


If you train in a style like Shotokan Pinan Shodan is Pinan Nidan and vice versa.

If you train in an Okinawan style Pinan Shodan is Pinan Shodan and Pinan Nidan is Pinan Nidan.

The reason... Pinan Shodan is viewed as more difficult than Nidan and thus they swapped the order.

Solid post!!



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