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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Are there mutiple forms of kata with same name? |
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| LastKing wrote: |
| None of the katas my club practice bear even the slightest resemblance to those which appear on youtube. All the videos online seem the same. Ours are totally different. Are there markedly different versions of, say, Pinan Nidan, or is Pinan Nidan basically Pinan Nidan? |
If you train in a style like Shotokan Pinan Shodan is Pinan Nidan and vice versa.
If you train in an Okinawan style Pinan Shodan is Pinan Shodan and Pinan Nidan is Pinan Nidan.
The reason... Pinan Shodan is viewed as more difficult than Nidan and thus they swapped the order.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| LastKing wrote: |
Thanks guys,
Our style, well, that's a tricky one. We have no definitive style but practice some kihon in shotokan, some in a shorter, western fighting stance (the more I see, the more I think we're like the instuctor's personal JKD project, just passed off as traditional, transferrable karate).
Our katas, though, are practiced in Shotokan.
No videos, I'm affraid, but our Pinan Nidan starts in cat, does a double lateral block, sweeps the hands as if unwinding a throat grab, then a push away, repeat other way, then advancing short cat with bock x3, ino to zen stance to right with a double lateral ridge hand block which exchanges, then a front kick, swap to other side and repeat, then turn, outer block and punch x3, horse stance, side kick and upward backfist, same other side, turn, downward block , side kick, low spinning sweep and zen with punch to ground.
Sorry for not knowing the Japanese for the blocks, but we don't do Japanese (why would we, it's not like any other club does - sarcastic tone btw).
It's nothing like any Pinan Nidan, nor Pinan Shodan I can find on line. |
The first half of it sounds like Pinan 2 from what you describe, but the “double lateral ridge hand” and on isn’t anything I’ve come across. Is it possibly a Korean form?
Not to sound the wrong way, but I’ve seen videos of several Korean forms that seem like a mashup of Pinan katas of sorts. And is it possible that you were/are doing “Korean karate” rather than Japanese or Okinawan karate? TKD and TSD have often been referred to as Korean karate. Again, it’s not a knock on Korean arts at all, it just gets confusing to people sometimes.
Look up Korean forms online. You might come across it. I don’t remember the names of them, but I’ve seen Korea forms videos that look quite a bit like re-worked Pinan and other Japanese/Okinawan kata. |
Sounds like a culmination of Kata or as you say mashup. Definitely not the way we perform either Kata.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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LastKing
Yellow Belt
Joined: 07 May 2015
Posts: 75
Styles: Freestyle karate, kickboxing, tai chi
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for that, guys. Will check out the Korean katas.
BTW, oirs bears scant resemblance to the one in the link. Not even the initial block is the same.
But again, thanks. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Actually to answer the subject title of the post - Yes. Seisan would be just one example. Shuri-te, Tomari-Te and Naha-te all have versions and those have versions dependent upon the art.
Example; Goju-Ryu and Uechi-Ryu are performed differently but are both called Seisan. Conversely these versions are different from their counterparts in Shuri-Te and Tomari-Te.
So yes... a Kata can be of the same name but be completely different.
I know this was not the context of the post but the title made me click on the post so I thought I'd answer the title as well. 
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Hoshin
Yellow Belt
Joined: 11 Apr 2018
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| LastKing wrote: |
Thanks guys,
Our style, well, that's a tricky one. We have no definitive style but practice some kihon in shotokan, some in a shorter, western fighting stance (the more I see, the more I think we're like the instuctor's personal JKD project, just passed off as traditional, transferrable karate).
Our katas, though, are practiced in Shotokan.
No videos, I'm affraid, but our Pinan Nidan starts in cat, does a double lateral block, sweeps the hands as if unwinding a throat grab, then a push away, repeat other way, then advancing short cat with bock x3, ino to zen stance to right with a double lateral ridge hand block which exchanges, then a front kick, swap to other side and repeat, then turn, outer block and punch x3, horse stance, side kick and upward backfist, same other side, turn, downward block , side kick, low spinning sweep and zen with punch to ground.
Sorry for not knowing the Japanese for the blocks, but we don't do Japanese (why would we, it's not like any other club does - sarcastic tone btw).
It's nothing like any Pinan Nidan, nor Pinan Shodan I can find on line. |
if your not sure of the name of your style,, its more than likely not a traditional style,,,,,so why would you expect to use traditional kata?
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A handful of men, inured to war, proceed to certain victory, while on the contrary numerous armies of raw and undisciplined troops are but multitudes of men dragged to slaughter.
-Flavius Renatus Vegetius- |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16417
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Man's creative, that's for sure. We like to reinvent the wheel so that it's either improved and/or it is their version.
I watched my daughter take a karate class, that wasn't Shindokan, the horror of it all, and to my amusement, as I watched them run through all of their kata's. Guess what I saw?? Every Shotokan Kata, however, with a one something or two added to each said kata's, with names like, Flying Dragon 1.
Interesting!!
Their founder has an extensive Kyokushin background, for what it's worth.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Man's creative, that's for sure. We like to reinvent the wheel so that it's either improved and/or it is their version.
I watched my daughter take a karate class, that wasn't Shindokan, the horror of it all, and to my amusement, as I watched them run through all of their kata's. Guess what I saw?? Every Shotokan Kata, however, with a one something or two added to each said kata's, with names like, Flying Dragon 1.
Interesting!!
Their founder has an extensive Kyokushin background, for what it's worth.
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Funakoshi wrote all about the reasoning behind his naming of the forms. Apparently many of them were already known by several different names depending on who you asked and where they'd trained. More than that, many of the written names had several possible translations. Funakoshi chose the names based on his own interpretation of them. An example being pyung ahn which he renamed heian because pyung ahn doesn't translate as accurately and unambiguously as heian.
The point I'm trying to make is that the 'shotokan kata' are actually just forms adopted by Funakoshi when he set about packaging up and formalising karate. He didn't make them. The already existed. All with many variants and many names. So if someone wants to take the 'shotokan kata' and change a few bits and rename it, is that really what they are doing? Or are they looking at older/other interpretations that already existed in Funakoshi's day?
Even if they did take the shotokan ones and tweak them and rename them, is that such a bad thing? We have the same thing in TSD (although few will admit it). But because TSD likes to put more emphasis on kicks than anything else, some bits that started off as footwork or simply low kicks, suddenly became bigger kicks but otherwise it's the same forms. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16417
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Are there mutiple forms of kata with same name? |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| LastKing wrote: |
| None of the katas my club practice bear even the slightest resemblance to those which appear on youtube. All the videos online seem the same. Ours are totally different. Are there markedly different versions of, say, Pinan Nidan, or is Pinan Nidan basically Pinan Nidan? |
If you train in a style like Shotokan Pinan Shodan is Pinan Nidan and vice versa.
If you train in an Okinawan style Pinan Shodan is Pinan Shodan and Pinan Nidan is Pinan Nidan.
The reason... Pinan Shodan is viewed as more difficult than Nidan and thus they swapped the order. |
Solid post!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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on the post.
