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skullsplitter
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 165

Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:08 am    Post subject: Axe kick to downed opponent Reply with quote

What's your opinion of this? This happened last weekend at a large tournament. There was also a late hit earlier in the match from the player in white that downed the other lady in black. With all the of the attention lately on concussions I find it hard to believe that promoters and paramedics allowed this lady to continue.

https://youtu.be/v1buenLpq4A?t=1h17m48s


Last edited by skullsplitter on Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6138
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That kick was brutal. If that had been at one of our tournaments it would have been an instant red card for the player in black. I know its hard to control an axe kick but it looked like there was no attempt to bail out or stop the leg.

Though as to whether she should continue, it depends on what the paramedics thought at the time. I've continued before after being knocked to the mat.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14329
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without having read that tournaments rule(s) concerning downed opponents, I can't reach an opinion. Having said that, and if I was the Arbitrator of that tournament, based on my experiences, I would've disqualified her for lack of control considering the venue.

If the rule had stated to follow through on a downed opponent, then I'd rule to instruct said downed opponent to defend herself much better than that...after all, you're a black belt, act like it. HOWEVER, if the downed opponent rule stated to follow through BUT WITH CONTROL, I'd still disqualify her because, imho, she lacked the necessary control for such a destructive kick...especially on a downed opponent.

And, no matter what the paramedics might have ruled, I wouldn't have allowed her to continue. Safety before anything!!



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MAfreak
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 96
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

not sure if this was intended to be an axe kick or an heel kick/ura mawashi geri, but no matter, she was out of control and almost fell while kicking.
thats why she just bangs it to her head. since also an axe kick can be easily slowed down after rising the foot, especially shortly over the ground.
not even in modern full contact mma, kicks to the head of a downed oppontent are allowed anymore. even less in point fighting kumite (whyle controlled it could give 3 points). although it might be accidential there should have been a warning or disqualification and a doctors stoppage to the downed girl. so this looks like a backyard tournament to me.
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skullsplitter
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Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 165

Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was a NASKA event. A 6-A event so one of their big ones. Their website says no stomps or kicks to the head on a downed opponent.

I have yet to see the full fight, but piecing together through various forums it seems medical staff did check her out, but not for several minutes after this and cleared her. I also read that she has a hairline fracture to her jaw.

At the very least the incident appears to be causing the point fighter community to call for tighter judging and better access to on site medical staff.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27701
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think there is any room in competition for a blow like that. Heck, even in self-defense, one had better have a good justification for kicking a downed opponent.
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DWx
KF Sensei
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6138
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skullsplitter wrote:

At the very least the incident appears to be causing the point fighter community to call for tighter judging and better access to on site medical staff.

Is it not commonplace to have first aiders on hand? Usually its necessary for insurance purposes. I reffed a tournament at the weekend and had 3 medics assigned to just my ring.
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
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Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2202
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was a disrespectful move of that competitor! I get that it was in the heat of the moment that it occurred, but still.

Even in the WKF Rules, the competitors would never do such a move. As 98% of all WKF will only punch to a downed opponent and never kick.
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MAfreak
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 96
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it seems but i heard from one of my former wkf trainers, that he saw it by himself on a tournament, that someone did the ura mawashi geri to a downed opponent, but controlled like they ought to do and scored with it. he was surprised of that too.
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Hawkmoon
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 891
Location: MK in the UK
Styles: Kyokushin

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look back from before that kick...

The fight looks to have become a 'bad tempered affair' long before that incident, which should have ended the fighters continued inclusion in the event!
Sure because of the rule break but more importantly the opponents safety and well being ... I get the irony of this being a fight and thats' the point but this is a tournament not a war!
The others persons life is ... well ... lets me clear open and honest...more important than the perceived earlier infringement that looks to the root of the cancer for that incident.

A late punch after the fight wad been halted for some infringement (Camera cannot see it ...wrong side) seems to be the trigger.
1:17...

.................................
Questions:

1. Was the referee correct to take the action they took here?
- should that maybe have taken harder line or ... ?

2. The fighter in white, was or was not prepared for the fight?
- Should there have been a private word to up the game or leave the mat?
(TKO)

3. The fighter in black, is pushing but are they in control?
- Should there have been a private word to settle down or leave the mat?
(TKO)

4. Both fighters act up should they both have been called together and spoken to about the poor sportsmanship?
.................................

I personally based on that kick alone would disqualify the fighter in black, there was and is no need ever to take a cheap shot like this, the point is yours the action takes that away!

However, 'it' on its own is simply not enough to use here. There is and there always is a trigger, some action, some input that will wind the other person up and each infringement has to be openly, clearly dealt with, and reprisal ... even doubly so, has to be stamped on, the referee not the fighter is in charge and they have to see this, they have to understand this they HAVE to respect this!
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