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kensei
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Joined: 05 Oct 2012
Posts: 235
Location: Canada
Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dobbersky wrote:
ShoriKid wrote:
kensei wrote:
The only thing I can add is the fact that rounds were shorter, less of them...and way less punches thrown than in regular boxing....not as many jabs as the risk of broken hands goes WAY up with bare knuckle boxing.


Actually it sort of ran the opposite as to the number of rounds. Until the MQ rules became popular rounds were often of variable length with each lasting until a knock down was scored. Unless the fight had a predetermined number of rounds they lasted until a man was downed and couldn't come to the mark in the given time, most commonly one minute. Some famous fights went into the triple digits.


I agree, us Kyokushin guys tend to fight without gloves and I've not known of anyone breaking their hands. We even do 100 man kumite and that's continuous as in no breaks


But you dont punch to the face! The top of the head or side of the head is a strong bone area and hands break...you punch to the meaty chest area and rops are still covered and more flexible than a skull!
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kensei
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Joined: 05 Oct 2012
Posts: 235
Location: Canada
Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

their exists a reason that boxing gloves were invented....to many broken hands!
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JusticeZero
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Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broken hands weren't that much of a problem before gloves - people didn't punch to the face as much. The gloves make the sport appear less brutal, at the cost of making it actually much more dangerous to the competitors.
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straightblast
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Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 136

Styles: close quarter combat

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the early MMA day's, they were bare knuckle and broke hands all the time.
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Dobbersky
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Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 1323
Location: Manchester. United Kingdom
Styles: Black Tiger Ashihara Karate Jutsu, Japanese Kickboxing, Cheng Man Ch'ing TaiChi

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kensei wrote:
Dobbersky wrote:
ShoriKid wrote:
kensei wrote:
The only thing I can add is the fact that rounds were shorter, less of them...and way less punches thrown than in regular boxing....not as many jabs as the risk of broken hands goes WAY up with bare knuckle boxing.


Actually it sort of ran the opposite as to the number of rounds. Until the MQ rules became popular rounds were often of variable length with each lasting until a knock down was scored. Unless the fight had a predetermined number of rounds they lasted until a man was downed and couldn't come to the mark in the given time, most commonly one minute. Some famous fights went into the triple digits.


I agree, us Kyokushin guys tend to fight without gloves and I've not known of anyone breaking their hands. We even do 100 man kumite and that's continuous as in no breaks


But you dont punch to the face! The top of the head or side of the head is a strong bone area and hands break...you punch to the meaty chest area and rops are still covered and more flexible than a skull!


SwordGod (as you borrowed the name from Musashi's nickname) you need to research better, Kyokushin and offshoots do punch to the head. We just don't do it in competition etc. It was a rule which was added because Sosai wanted the competitions to last longer than they were. Also we still kick to the head. I'm sure you've heard or George St Pierre and Semmy Schilt? Kyokushin & Ashihara fighters who had no issues knocking people out with punching to the face.

Also, my good friend and assistant instructor in my Dojo in his earlier days retired as UN-defeated Boxing Champ in his weight class. He won 90% of his fights with bodyshots not headshots.
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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29283
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JusticeZero wrote:
Broken hands weren't that much of a problem before gloves - people didn't punch to the face as much. The gloves make the sport appear less brutal, at the cost of making it actually much more dangerous to the competitors.


This. It wasn't the jab/jab setup game that we see today. The style was so much different, and with the advent of gloves, as mentioned, head hitting became more popular.
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kensei
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Joined: 05 Oct 2012
Posts: 235
Location: Canada
Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dobbersky wrote:

SwordGod (as you borrowed the name from Musashi's nickname) you need to research better, Kyokushin and offshoots do punch to the head. We just don't do it in competition etc. It was a rule which was added because Sosai wanted the competitions to last longer than they were. Also we still kick to the head. I'm sure you've heard or George St Pierre and Semmy Schilt? Kyokushin & Ashihara fighters who had no issues knocking people out with punching to the face.

Also, my good friend and assistant instructor in my Dojo in his earlier days retired as UN-defeated Boxing Champ in his weight class. He won 90% of his fights with bodyshots not headshots.


Kensei can mean "sword saint" but in this case it does not....Kensei has several meaning...in my case the name means "an important silence" ....I like the irony!

Two things...Been doing Karate near 40 years now and a good buddy of mine is Kyokushin and trained with Mas Oyama at several training camps...my reasearch is purely based on what he has told me as it was told to him by Oyama.

I was not saying you NEVER punch to the face, I am saying those that train for the sport aspect REMOVE this type of training from their training to make sure they dont accidentally nail someone and get in trouble. And WHOLE schools have done this as they focus on the sport aspect. We have two Kyokushin schools in our area (one of which my friend attends and instructs at) and only the one my friend teaches at has face punching in the training (at the face, not hitting the face) the other BANNED it from training to make sure the students dont do this in sport.

My research is fine, the problem is you are assuming that all Kyokushina and the off shoots are the same across the board...they are not.

I respect the hell out of Kyokushin and watched the Enshin fights ext, great sport fun.

I tried Kyokushin as a work out once, but bugged my buddy that it was kind of the same as what we do....mixed with some really watered down Goju Kata. All in good fun mind you, his instructor was fantastic and I had a great time.
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Dark Shogun
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Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Posts: 123
Location: Australia
Styles: Okinawan Goju Ryu karate, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu iaido, Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What kind of fist conditioning was used in bare-knuckle boxing as compared to that used in karate?
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Harkon72
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Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sand bag training with White Spirit or strong alcohol to callous the hands.
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guird
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Joined: 21 Jun 2013
Posts: 198

Styles: BJJ, MMA, Gongkwon Yusul

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another difference is that covering becomes a little less effective without gloves, and parrying a little more so. you'll need to take care of your opponents head-hook punches by using the elbow-style cover, or a krav-maga-360-defense kind of block.

I'm pretty sure that's a difference most mma gyms can teach you though. I don't think there's much bare knuckle boxing can teach you which is applicable to MMA that most fighters haven't already figured out. When it comes to self defense however, there may be some things important to take note of to allow your boxing to translate better into the street.
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