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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89
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 Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:14 pm Post subject: Being a Purist in One Style is Too Limiting |
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I am against being a purist in any one style because I find it too limiting. No style is perfect and by taking on another style you can fill in gaps and compensate for weaknesses in your first style. For instance Im primarily a Karate stylist, I like to fight on my feet and use strikes, but I've also taken up BJJ because grappling and ground work are areas that Karate is, from my experience, severely lacking in, and those are areas that BJJ emphasizes and specializes in. So that way, by training in BJJ if Im up against a grappler I will know how to defend against them.
As for the Gracie's success in the martial arts, an instructor once said its not because of their style but because the Gracies work hard. I believe that. The Gracie style is not in any way superior to any other style the Gracies just work really hard. Had the Gracies specialized in some other style, for instance had the Gracies specialized in Karate they probably would've been just as successful. |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| XtremeTrainer wrote: |
I am against being a purist in any one style because I find it too limiting. No style is perfect and by taking on another style you can fill in gaps and compensate for weaknesses in your first style. For instance Im primarily a Karate stylist, I like to fight on my feet and use strikes, but I've also taken up BJJ because grappling and ground work are areas that Karate is, from my experience, severely lacking in, and those are areas that BJJ emphasizes and specializes in. So that way, by training in BJJ if Im up against a grappler I will know how to defend against them.
As for the Gracie's success in the martial arts, an instructor once said its not because of their style but because the Gracies work hard. I believe that. The Gracie style is not in any way superior to any other style the Gracies just work really hard. Had the Gracies specialized in some other style, for instance had the Gracies specialized in Karate they probably would've been just as successful. |
Meh.... not really.
Martial artists around the world trained hard, some harder than the gracies. The gracies trained smart, analyzing and exploiting an incredible weakness in the martial arts world as it pertains to ground fighting.
Grappling was always a dominant style of fighting, going back to renassaince, medieval, and even roman-greek world. It was neglected as a martial art when firearms were steadily introduced. |
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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
Meh.... not really.
Martial artists around the world trained hard, some harder than the gracies. The gracies trained smart, analyzing and exploiting an incredible weakness in the martial arts world as it pertains to ground fighting.
Grappling was always a dominant style of fighting, going back to renassaince, medieval, and even roman-greek world. It was neglected as a martial art when firearms were steadily introduced. |
Well yes the Gracies did train smart but they trained hard too. I do know that wrestling was done as far back as the Greek empire and probably earlier. The Greeks had wrestling, boxing, and Pankration which was their own form of MMA. I don't see the invention and development of firearms as something that would cause the grappling arts to be any more neglected than the striking arts. Neither grappling or striking arts are that good against firearms so if anything, it stands to reason that if one would be neglected due to firearms being used, both would be neglected. |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| XtremeTrainer wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
Meh.... not really.
Martial artists around the world trained hard, some harder than the gracies. The gracies trained smart, analyzing and exploiting an incredible weakness in the martial arts world as it pertains to ground fighting.
Grappling was always a dominant style of fighting, going back to renassaince, medieval, and even roman-greek world. It was neglected as a martial art when firearms were steadily introduced. |
Well yes the Gracies did train smart but they trained hard too. I do know that wrestling was done as far back as the Greek empire and probably earlier. The Greeks had wrestling, boxing, and Pankration which was their own form of MMA. I don't see the invention and development of firearms as something that would cause the grappling arts to be any more neglected than the striking arts. Neither grappling or striking arts are that good against firearms so if anything, it stands to reason that if one would be neglected due to firearms being used, both would be neglected. |
So the ability to wrestle was of greater use for hand to hand fighting than was striking for good reason- if you were able to strike you were able to use your spear, short sword, or dagger even. During the medieval era and even well into the renaissance with fencing and swordplay wrestling was heavily emphasized- to the point where it was speculated the person who would win a fencing duel is the one who's a better wrestler.
You also have to consider that for most of warefares history, soldiers are also wearing armor so striking is going to be less effective and desireable. It just didnt make sense- if you can strike that means your opponent isnt grabbing you so theres nothign preventing you from drawing your secondary weapon (assuming you lost your first). Also of note is the way you got paid during the medieval era was through ransoms and pillage. Its not good business to kill your enemies when you can capture them and ransom them. As a result, wrestling them to the ground and subduing them was of greater importance. |
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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| As for which style is superior, if grappling or striking styles are superior, or if there is a certain grappling or striking style that is superior I would say it depends on the person doing it rather than the style but it also depends on the rules that you're fighting under. There was a time when the Gracies were challenging all these top level strikers and kick boxing champions to fights and their challenges were being turned down because the fighters they were challenging did not train to fight in fights where going to the mat was allowed and they knew they would lose. By the same token the Gracies knew they would lose if they fought under the rules used in kick boxing matches as they were not kick boxers and thus they would not fight in such a match. |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| XtremeTrainer wrote: |
| As for which style is superior, if grappling or striking styles are superior, or if there is a certain grappling or striking style that is superior I would say it depends on the person doing it rather than the style but it also depends on the rules that you're fighting under. There was a time when the Gracies were challenging all these top level strikers and kick boxing champions to fights and their challenges were being turned down because the fighters they were challenging did not train to fight in fights where going to the mat was allowed and they knew they would lose. By the same token the Gracies knew they would lose if they fought under the rules used in kick boxing matches as they were not kick boxers and thus they would not fight in such a match. |
Still, no. Styles are not created equal because they don’t all teach the same
Thing. Even among those that do (judo and bjj) with the emphasis on different things, the outcome and skill sets are like night and day- so YES what style you train in absolutely DOES matter.
The Gracie’s challenged people to fights. No rules no muss- 2 guys go st it until one can’t continue, just like real life would otherwise be. The kickboxers who turned the fights down did so because they knew they’d most likely lose. It wasn’t that they wanted different rules- they wanted no rules. Most weren’t prepared for that. |
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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
Still, no. Styles are not created equal because they don’t all teach the same
Thing. Even among those that do (judo and bjj) with the emphasis on different things, the outcome and skill sets are like night and day- so YES what style you train in absolutely DOES matter.
The Gracie’s challenged people to fights. No rules no muss- 2 guys go st it until one can’t continue, just like real life would otherwise be. The kickboxers who turned the fights down did so because they knew they’d most likely lose. It wasn’t that they wanted different rules- they wanted no rules. Most weren’t prepared for that. |
But there were rules. For instance it could only be one on one, you couldn't have friends help you out. No weapons were allowed. There were also rules against biting and eye gouging. There is always rules of some sort. |
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Tempest
Green Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 424
Location: Dallas
Styles: Judo, HEMA
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| XtremeTrainer wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
Still, no. Styles are not created equal because they don’t all teach the same
Thing. Even among those that do (judo and bjj) with the emphasis on different things, the outcome and skill sets are like night and day- so YES what style you train in absolutely DOES matter.
The Gracie’s challenged people to fights. No rules no muss- 2 guys go st it until one can’t continue, just like real life would otherwise be. The kickboxers who turned the fights down did so because they knew they’d most likely lose. It wasn’t that they wanted different rules- they wanted no rules. Most weren’t prepared for that. |
But there were rules. For instance it could only be one on one, you couldn't have friends help you out. No weapons were allowed. There were also rules against biting and eye gouging. There is always rules of some sort. |
No martial art worth studying would include "get my buddies to help me whip this guy". The point of the fights was to show how effective each fighter was. Not to destroy other people. The Gracies never had anyone help their fighter out.
It is true that no weapons were allowed except your hands. But it was the same weapons your opponent had. You were equally armed.
The rules against biting and eye gouging didn't come along until later. But people rarely did it because even instinctively, they understood Bas Ruttens now famous saying: "Never escalate the level of violence in a fight you are losing."
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused. |
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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Tempest wrote: |
No martial art worth studying would include "get my buddies to help me whip this guy". The point of the fights was to show how effective each fighter was. Not to destroy other people. The Gracies never had anyone help their fighter out.
It is true that no weapons were allowed except your hands. But it was the same weapons your opponent had. You were equally armed.
The rules against biting and eye gouging didn't come along until later. But people rarely did it because even instinctively, they understood Bas Ruttens now famous saying: "Never escalate the level of violence in a fight you are losing." |
In reference to the part of your quote in bold, that's part of my point, that its the effectiveness of the fighter not the effectiveness of the fighting style that is being compared whenever you pit two fighters against each other. I've never known of any martial art that involves getting your friends to help you but the fact of the matter is that's what you can often expect to come up against in the street. In the street you can expect group attacks and you can expect the use of weapons. So if you want to be street effective you need to take those things into consideration. |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| XtremeTrainer wrote: |
| As for which style is superior, if grappling or striking styles are superior, or if there is a certain grappling or striking style that is superior I would say it depends on the person doing it rather than the style but it also depends on the rules that you're fighting under. There was a time when the Gracies were challenging all these top level strikers and kick boxing champions to fights and their challenges were being turned down because the fighters they were challenging did not train to fight in fights where going to the mat was allowed and they knew they would lose. By the same token the Gracies knew they would lose if they fought under the rules used in kick boxing matches as they were not kick boxers and thus they would not fight in such a match. |
Still, no. Styles are not created equal because they don’t all teach the same
Thing. Even among those that do (judo and bjj) with the emphasis on different things, the outcome and skill sets are like night and day- so YES what style you train in absolutely DOES matter.
The Gracie’s challenged people to fights. No rules no muss- 2 guys go st it until one can’t continue, just like real life would otherwise be. The kickboxers who turned the fights down did so because they knew they’d most likely lose. It wasn’t that they wanted different rules- they wanted no rules. Most weren’t prepared for that. |
This is absolutely true. Your outcome will depend on how well you've matched what you do to the environment you'll be working in. A good fundamental SD school that does BJJ will work great for a cop trying to control and arrest a bad guy. It may be susceptible at higher levels of competition in BJJ due to a lack of time on advanced guard work and leg attacks...even within styles there are focuses.
Certainly the practitioner matters. Mindset factors in. But matching skill to environment is critical. That's why what you train matters.
_________________
http://alphajiujitsu.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJhRVuwbm__LwXPvFMReMww |
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on the post.
