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Liver Punch
Green Belt
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 417
Location: Snake Mountain
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Pro Wrestling, Gun-Fu
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 Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:55 am Post subject: BJJ Defensive Lock-Down |
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For the purposes of MMA, particularly when I'm helping someone else get ready for a fight, I'm a huge fan of stalling off my back. There's nothing more frustrating to a wrestler who looks for a takedown followed by strikes from on top when you grapevine his legs from your back, get really deep overhooks, and render him useless. I've actually employed this strategy against a bigger wrestler in a live MMA fight in an attempt to wear him out early in the fight without sustaining much damage.
We're going to set the context of this "technique" in a combative/real life situation rather than the rule set of competition. In MMA it forces you to finish rounds strong to win them or to finish the fight outright. In BJJ, your opponent is likely to be happy with what you've done to yourself and ride the position to victory.
In the case of self defense, and particularly law enforcement, I think that it's perhaps got a place. Perhaps in a situation like shown in the "ground fighting conflict" thread, offensive Jiu Jitsu isn't preferable? Assuming the person on top has the ability to effectively land strikes, creating space opens up the person on bottom to taking a few shots. If you have no backup, or there are multiple attackers, this is a gamble worth taking.
However, if help is in the immediate vicinity, if it's a one-on-one confrontation, and no weapons are present, tying the person up and holding them down isn't the worst idea on Earth. It's also a fairly simple technique to learn, and would be difficult to misconstrue as "excessive force."
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"A gun is a tool. Like a butcher knife or a harpoon, or uhh... an alligator."
― Homer, The Simpsons |
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Groinstrike
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 923
Location: Richland County
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Krav Maga, Jeet Kune Do, BJJ M
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| I call this the drunken friend defense, if you are at a friendly gathering, and one of your buds gets out of control and for some reason tackles you, this can keep them from hurting you or themselves for long enough that your other friends can pull him off. |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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There are situations outside the ring where this is a good tactic as well is my belief. We have started teaching the building blocks at the department to get this maneuver into everyone's tool box. Largely for the reasons you lay out LP.
Most of the time we hunt in packs, hence someone is usually on their way if not already with you. With the right upper body control and grips you can keep the bad guy away from the stuff on your belt. Plus you can usually get to your radio and scramble the emergency button is you haven't got people on their way yet.
Lastly, what I've found thru some experimentation is that it's not a horrible platform to deploy you're weapon from in close quarters. Of course, this takes some extra care in developing grips and control so you don't end up wrestling over the gun you produce.
By the way, since the subject came up here. One of the best training things we've done was to start working grappling drills with duty gear on and working on things like safely deploying weapons and retaining them, ect. This is particularly useful for us copper types, however, it's just as important for anyone who carries any sort of weapon. You'll be surprised what you learn about equipment selection, placement, and presentation and use.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:56 am Post subject: |
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I think that's a great idea, LP, especially for someone like me who isn't entirely confident in fighting on the ground, to nullify the attacker until help shows up.
| tallgeese wrote: |
| Lastly, what I've found thru some experimentation is that it's not a horrible platform to deploy you're weapon from in close quarters. Of course, this takes some extra care in developing grips and control so you don't end up wrestling over the gun you produce. |
I've seen some of this demonstrated, and I think it is a most valuable tool to use. What I would work on in training is that if you are at that point, if you are going to draw your weapon, then there is no question as to what happens next; it gets used. That would be the most important point to get across, I think.
| tallgeese wrote: |
| By the way, since the subject came up here. One of the best training things we've done was to start working grappling drills with duty gear on and working on things like safely deploying weapons and retaining them, ect. This is particularly useful for us copper types, however, it's just as important for anyone who carries any sort of weapon. You'll be surprised what you learn about equipment selection, placement, and presentation and use. |
We didn't do much rolling in our gear, but did do some. That stuff on the belt can really affect how well you move and work for position, that's for sure. Do you find that people get banged and bruised up more from training with the duty belt on?
| Liver Punch wrote: |
| However, if help is in the immediate vicinity, if it's a one-on-one confrontation, and no weapons are present, tying the person up and holding them down isn't the worst idea on Earth. It's also a fairly simple technique to learn, and would be difficult to misconstrue as "excessive force." |
It would definitely be helpful in excessive force arguements. Reference the highlighted portion; just remember that in law enforcement, you almost always are bringing a weapon to every fight. That said, I still think the idea is a sound tactic.
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I think that's a great idea, LP, especially for someone like me who isn't entirely confident in fighting on the ground, to nullify the attacker until help shows up.
| tallgeese wrote: |
| Lastly, what I've found thru some experimentation is that it's not a horrible platform to deploy you're weapon from in close quarters. Of course, this takes some extra care in developing grips and control so you don't end up wrestling over the gun you produce. |
I've seen some of this demonstrated, and I think it is a most valuable tool to use. What I would work on in training is that if you are at that point, if you are going to draw your weapon, then there is no question as to what happens next; it gets used. That would be the most important point to get across, I think.
| tallgeese wrote: |
| By the way, since the subject came up here. One of the best training things we've done was to start working grappling drills with duty gear on and working on things like safely deploying weapons and retaining them, ect. This is particularly useful for us copper types, however, it's just as important for anyone who carries any sort of weapon. You'll be surprised what you learn about equipment selection, placement, and presentation and use. |
We didn't do much rolling in our gear, but did do some. That stuff on the belt can really affect how well you move and work for position, that's for sure. Do you find that people get banged and bruised up more from training with the duty belt on?
| Liver Punch wrote: |
| However, if help is in the immediate vicinity, if it's a one-on-one confrontation, and no weapons are present, tying the person up and holding them down isn't the worst idea on Earth. It's also a fairly simple technique to learn, and would be difficult to misconstrue as "excessive force." |
It would definitely be helpful in excessive force arguements. Reference the highlighted portion; just remember that in law enforcement, you almost always are bringing a weapon to every fight. That said, I still think the idea is a sound tactic. |
Yes. If there's a way around it, I haven't found it. On the up side, it's always minor discomfort more than anything. Usually on the part of the one wearing the gear. Let's face it, rolling over all that stuff and a red gun is just uncomfortable. That's been the extent of it though and hence we've gotten by with it.
For the general population, we've kept the drills fairly static to date. This years evolution will be the first time they have free form work off of the ground. I'll have more insight for you after that. The other work, I've done on my own or with the members of the CT cadre.
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJhRVuwbm__LwXPvFMReMww |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 3025
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:00 am Post subject: Re: BJJ Defensive Lock-Down |
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| Liver Punch wrote: |
| For the purposes of MMA, particularly when I'm helping someone else get ready for a fight, I'm a huge fan of stalling off my back. There's nothing more frustrating to a wrestler who looks for a takedown followed by strikes from on top when you grapevine his legs from your back, get really deep overhooks, and render him useless. I've actually employed this strategy against a bigger wrestler in a live MMA fight in an attempt to wear him out early in the fight without sustaining much damage. |
Respectfully, this worked because he clearly had no or very little BJJ training. Wrestlers always think they're gonna win on the ground. Then they learn they don't know how to advance positions past the guard because, from their perspective, you're pinned. Not only that, it's not good to lay on your back just holding a guy down when judges are watching. Gives the impression he's better than you and you're likely to lose the round if you do it too long or too much.
| Liver Punch wrote: |
| We're going to set the context of this "technique" in a combative/real life situation rather than the rule set of competition. In MMA it forces you to finish rounds strong to win them or to finish the fight outright. In BJJ, your opponent is likely to be happy with what you've done to yourself and ride the position to victory. |
This is because it's not a smart technique, respectfully.
| Liver Punch wrote: |
| In the case of self defense, and particularly law enforcement, I think that it's perhaps got a place. Perhaps in a situation like shown in the "ground fighting conflict" thread, offensive Jiu Jitsu isn't preferable? Assuming the person on top has the ability to effectively land strikes, creating space opens up the person on bottom to taking a few shots. If you have no backup, or there are multiple attackers, this is a gamble worth taking. |
The guard has three purposes in fighting (for which it was designed). Submit, Sweep, or Get on Your Feet. Lying on your back, using a grapevine is not a good idea. It limits the mobility of your hips and keeps you pinned to the ground as well. I do not ever want to be stuck on the bottom. Remember that the opponent has gravity on his side. If you don't have back up very quickly, you could end up pounded or worse. Create a frame, get on your feet and regroup. If you know how to do it properly, you won't really be in much danger of getting hit. Stand in base is one of the first things learned in bjj. If they try to strike you during that, there are answers that lead to the opponent's back and sweeps to mount. Much more preferred positions.
| Liver Punch wrote: |
| However, if help is in the immediate vicinity, if it's a one-on-one confrontation, and no weapons are present, tying the person up and holding them down isn't the worst idea on Earth. It's also a fairly simple technique to learn, and would be difficult to misconstrue as "excessive force." |
I don't have them, but there are numbers related to police deaths and injuries caused by fellow officers collapsing a suspect onto their partner. When your "help" rounds the bend and jumps on the suspect because it looks like he's killing you, lots of bad things can happen. Ruptured spleen, broken limbs, punctured lungs, injured knees (since you have them fully extended with your grapevine.
The only smart reason to grapevine an opponent's legs from the closed guard with over hooks is to get him to pull one away. When he does, establish a hook and get your very easy sweep.
Despite popular belief, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is not meant to be fought from the back. It worked a little like that in early UFC because no one knew what it was and it works in competition because there are no punches. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu should always be used with the goal of gaining positional dominance, ending the fight, and getting back on your feet.
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Liver Punch
Green Belt
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 417
Location: Snake Mountain
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Pro Wrestling, Gun-Fu
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:25 am Post subject: Re: BJJ Defensive Lock-Down |
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| ps1 wrote: |
| Respectfully, this worked because he clearly had no or very little BJJ training. Wrestlers always think they're gonna win on the ground. Then they learn they don't know how to advance positions past the guard because, from their perspective, you're pinned. Not only that, it's not good to lay on your back just holding a guy down when judges are watching. Gives the impression he's better than you and you're likely to lose the round if you do it too long or too much. |
Right, that's the idea - to use their lack of ability against them. In that scenario, the guy outweighed me by more than 60 lbs. His ability to lay on top of people with wrestling is phenomenal, his cardio wasn't. I had three rounds to work against him, and he was going to be out of energy/oxygen by the third. I felt as though the math was in my favor, and lying there with my eyes shut and relaxed was a good gamble against him struggling frantically to hit me.
This is because it's not a smart technique, respectfully.
| ps1 wrote: |
| I don't have them, but there are numbers related to police deaths and injuries caused by fellow officers collapsing a suspect onto their partner. When your "help" rounds the bend and jumps on the suspect because it looks like he's killing you, lots of bad things can happen. Ruptured spleen, broken limbs, punctured lungs, injured knees (since you have them fully extended with your grapevine. |
I don't really see how this situation would be remedied using more advanced techniques. You could work toward a kimura for the sweep, but if someone lands on top of you then, they're in no better shape. It's the same with using butterfly sweeps or anything else.
| ps1 wrote: |
| The only smart reason to grapevine an opponent's legs from the closed guard with over hooks is to get him to pull one away. When he does, establish a hook and get your very easy sweep. |
I like it to prevent people from establishing a base and stacking me. Getting to your feet from inside the guard to apply hip pressure is a heck of a lot harder when your legs are tied up.
| ps1 wrote: |
| Despite popular belief, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is not meant to be fought from the back. It worked a little like that in early UFC because no one knew what it was and it works in competition because there are no punches. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu should always be used with the goal of gaining positional dominance, ending the fight, and getting back on your feet. |
I completely agree. In a perfect world, every armed service member, police officer, fire fighter, EMT, and security guard would be well versed in a series of martial arts. This would keep them off their back, and if they ended up there, they'd quickly and perfectly sweep the person into dominant position. Unfortunately, on their back is a place where people end up a lot more than they'd like to. Every sweep, escape, and transition has risk involved. So, grapevines or not, preventing someone from hurting you while not injuring them is a really, really good idea. If I had a partner in the immediate vicinity after ending up on my back , I'd much prefer a nice, safe stalemate over a fight.
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"A gun is a tool. Like a butcher knife or a harpoon, or uhh... an alligator."
― Homer, The Simpsons |
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 3025
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:44 am Post subject: Re: BJJ Defensive Lock-Down |
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| Liver Punch wrote: |
| ps1 wrote: |
| I don't have them, but there are numbers related to police deaths and injuries caused by fellow officers collapsing a suspect onto their partner. When your "help" rounds the bend and jumps on the suspect because it looks like he's killing you, lots of bad things can happen. Ruptured spleen, broken limbs, punctured lungs, injured knees (since you have them fully extended with your grapevine. |
I don't really see how this situation would be remedied using more advanced techniques. You could work toward a kimura for the sweep, but if someone lands on top of you then, they're in no better shape. It's the same with using butterfly sweeps or anything else. |
I see what you mean. Let me make my point more clear. Statistically, when an officer sees his partner on the bottom. He throws himself onto the pile and then tries to peel the bad guy off. This tends to cause injury to the person on the very bottom (the other officer). It would be a total non-issue if he comes up and sees you on the top, still in control.
| Liver Punch wrote: |
| ps1 wrote: |
| The only smart reason to grapevine an opponent's legs from the closed guard with over hooks is to get him to pull one away. When he does, establish a hook and get your very easy sweep. |
I like it to prevent people from establishing a base and stacking me. Getting to your feet from inside the guard to apply hip pressure is a heck of a lot harder when your legs are tied up. |
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You want the person to stand. Just unlock you legs and do a basic ankle grab sweep...you're now on top.
| Liver Punch wrote: |
| ps1 wrote: |
| Despite popular belief, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is not meant to be fought from the back. It worked a little like that in early UFC because no one knew what it was and it works in competition because there are no punches. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu should always be used with the goal of gaining positional dominance, ending the fight, and getting back on your feet. |
I completely agree. Unfortunately, on your back is a place where people end up a lot more than they'd like to. Every sweep, escape, and transition has risk involved. If I have a partner in the immediate vicinity, I'd much prefer a nice, safe stalemate over a fight. |
I get what you're saying. Obviously a fight is never the preferred method. And I also get that LEOs don't get to train often unless it's on their own. So my perspective of how easy it is go get out is different. But, if trained properly, they only need three basic sweeps. and knowledge of how to control side mount and full mount. That's it. 5 things and done. Keeps them off the bottom and more safe. For the record, I wouldn't attempt any joint manipulations on a suspect. If they're on drugs you can rip their arm off and they may not even notice. Sweep/ get up and control...that's all they need.
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Liver Punch
Green Belt
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 417
Location: Snake Mountain
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Pro Wrestling, Gun-Fu
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:54 am Post subject: Re: BJJ Defensive Lock-Down |
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| ps1 wrote: |
You want the person to stand. Just unlock you legs and do a basic ankle grab sweep...you're now on top. |
Unless they botch it, at which point their being squashed. My concern with technique is people's unwillingness to learn it and then practice it forever. Your method is a winner - it's pretty much been proven a million times, but 99.5% of the population still doesn't know it. I think "grab and squeeze" is much more teachable, and in the short term has less room for error.
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on the post.
