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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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 Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:27 am Post subject: |
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[quote="JR 137"][quote="Prototype"]
| JR 137 wrote: |
As far as WTF and ITF TKD, how different are they? And again, variations on each other? Technique wise, is TKD completely different than karate?
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There are fundamental differences in everything including stance and bodymechanics. Different arts at this point. WTF guys for instance chamber roundhouses as a front kick, then switch over, and strike with the ball of the foot. ITF kicks are the same as Tang Soo Do kicks - Shotokan roots, but with more hip rotation to them. Strike surface is ball of the foot (although we drill instep from time to time). WTF blocks by and large are still Shotokan, ITFs are not. A downward block in WTF is a shotokan block, a downward block in ITF, the elbow is bent, and the closed fingers pointing towards you. The WTF/shotokan downward block - the elbow is straight down and closed fingers point to the ground. |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| The information may be dated but Michael Jai White is at least a 3rd dan in Shotokan. |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| Prototype wrote: |
| DWx wrote: |
I wouldn't say they're the same. Shotokan would be more like the parent style as Tang Soo Do does have other influences and further developed on its own in Korea.
You'll find the kata in Shotokan and Tang Soo Do have their own unique flavour to them. |
The only difference I know of is greater hip rotation in the korean version of mawashi geri, at the cost of speed. This was also carried over to traditional TaeKwonDo, since TSD instructors were recruited to pass on their knowledge to the first generation TKD students |
Bassai Hyung as done by TSD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLfJW3dHyVQ
Bassai Dai as done by Shotokan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtiK0dIg-_I&t=8s
Ignoring the differences in individual skill level, there are definite differences in how the moves are done.
for example look at the start position or ready position for these blocks (chudan uke / kaunde makgi). In TSD its a full crossover right around the body with the blocking fist pointing behind at the start of the movement, in Shotokan it is a much shorter movement with the arms crossing lower in and x-shape
(it's probably best to slow the videos down to half speed to see)
TSD kaunde makgi: https://youtu.be/TLfJW3dHyVQ?t=22s
Shotokan chudan uke: https://youtu.be/NtiK0dIg-_I?t=27s
There are further stylistic differences all the way through.
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| DWx wrote: |
I wouldn't say they're the same. Shotokan would be more like the parent style as Tang Soo Do does have other influences and further developed on its own in Korea.
You'll find the kata in Shotokan and Tang Soo Do have their own unique flavour to them. |
The only difference I know of is greater hip rotation in the korean version of mawashi geri, at the cost of speed. This was also carried over to traditional TaeKwonDo, since TSD instructors were recruited to pass on their knowledge to the first generation TKD students |
Bassai Hyung as done by TSD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLfJW3dHyVQ
Bassai Dai as done by Shotokan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtiK0dIg-_I&t=8s
Ignoring the differences in individual skill level, there are definite differences in how the moves are done.
for example look at the start position or ready position for these blocks (chudan uke / kaunde makgi). In TSD its a full crossover right around the body with the blocking fist pointing behind at the start of the movement, in Shotokan it is a much shorter movement with the arms crossing lower in and x-shape
(it's probably best to slow the videos down to half speed to see)
TSD kaunde makgi: https://youtu.be/TLfJW3dHyVQ?t=22s
Shotokan chudan uke: https://youtu.be/NtiK0dIg-_I?t=27s
There are further stylistic differences all the way through. |
I don't think it's meaningful to draw conclusions based on an amateurs clip on YouTube. He may very well perform incorrectly. |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| Better to compare with this old footage of skilled TSD black belt.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5DOGKO4qvo |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| Prototype wrote: |
| Better to compare with this old footage of skilled TSD black belt.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5DOGKO4qvo |
That's Hwang Kee circa 1950s. The style has developed since then. It's like comparing Gichin Funakoshi to today's average blackbelt.
If we're talking about whether there is value in holding two blackbelts today, better to look at how the current style teaches and moves and compare what the average student is doing today as that's what they'll be learning and practising.
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| Better to compare with this old footage of skilled TSD black belt.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5DOGKO4qvo |
That's Hwang Kee circa 1950s. The style has developed since then. It's like comparing Gichin Funakoshi to today's average blackbelt.
If we're talking about whether there is value in holding two blackbelts today, better to look at how the current style teaches and moves and compare what the average student is doing today as that's what they'll be learning and practising. |
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Regardless, you think having ones shoulder higher or lower (for example) when performing kata justifies spending time getting a second black belt?
As for Gishin Funakoshis Karate-Do, the reason we can't compare it to todays Shotokan is because his son, Gigo, made fundamental changes to the art. No person after Hwang Kee made fundamental changes to Tang Soo Do, that I know of, |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| And, might I add, Shotokan of today looks identical to gigo and Nakayamas Shotokan. So Karate does not automatically evolve with time. Shotokan development has been pretty stagnant, to its detriment. |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Prototype wrote: |
| DWx wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| Better to compare with this old footage of skilled TSD black belt.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5DOGKO4qvo |
That's Hwang Kee circa 1950s. The style has developed since then. It's like comparing Gichin Funakoshi to today's average blackbelt.
If we're talking about whether there is value in holding two blackbelts today, better to look at how the current style teaches and moves and compare what the average student is doing today as that's what they'll be learning and practising. |
¨
Regardless, you think having ones shoulder higher or lower (for example) when performing kata justifies spending time getting a second black belt?
As for Gishin Funakoshis Karate-Do, the reason we can't compare it to todays Shotokan is because his son, Gigo, made fundamental changes to the art. No person after Hwang Kee made fundamental changes to Tang Soo Do, that I know of, |
Not sure where I said it justifies getting a second blackbelt? My point was that there are more differences between the two than just the hip rotation aspect you mentioned in an earlier post:
| Prototype wrote: |
| The only difference I know of is greater hip rotation in the korean version of mawashi geri, at the cost of speed. |
Chudan uke / kaunde makgi was just one easy example in Bassai which is a kata / form the two styles share.
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| DWx wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| Better to compare with this old footage of skilled TSD black belt.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5DOGKO4qvo |
That's Hwang Kee circa 1950s. The style has developed since then. It's like comparing Gichin Funakoshi to today's average blackbelt.
If we're talking about whether there is value in holding two blackbelts today, better to look at how the current style teaches and moves and compare what the average student is doing today as that's what they'll be learning and practising. |
¨
Regardless, you think having ones shoulder higher or lower (for example) when performing kata justifies spending time getting a second black belt?
As for Gishin Funakoshis Karate-Do, the reason we can't compare it to todays Shotokan is because his son, Gigo, made fundamental changes to the art. No person after Hwang Kee made fundamental changes to Tang Soo Do, that I know of, |
Not sure where I said it justifies getting a second blackbelt? My point was that there are more differences between the two than just the hip rotation aspect you mentioned in an earlier post:
| Prototype wrote: |
| The only difference I know of is greater hip rotation in the korean version of mawashi geri, at the cost of speed. |
Chudan uke / kaunde makgi was just one easy example in Bassai which is a kata / form the two styles share. |
I was referring to techniques in isolation from any kata. If you see a Shotokan dude delivering a sidekick, his/hers body is not leaned back like the Korean version. Japanese kicking techniques are much more tight and rushed . |
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