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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 1609
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
Demotion of rank happens in the military why not in the dojo, perhaps if a black belt beats up a white belt, would be a good enough reason.

Also the expression "Too many Chiefs and not enough Indian" has a valid point here.

I personally don't promote or demote, as I'm not in favor of belt ranking systems.

As I'm not affiliated with any military pretend or real organizations.


Yes I guess you could demote based on inappropriate behavior.

However the facts are the facts. If you have earned something you have it whether it's on paper or around your waste. You can not take away knowledge or the skill that has been attained so I see little effect in removing grade. If your going to go to that extent it would be better to just kick them out of class.

On the opposite side, if you have not earned something it doesn't matter what is on paper or around your waste you are not that grade, period!
You are nothing more than a paper tiger.

And the difference between the military and the Dojo is one very important factor, you go home to your family at the end of class and never have to return if you do not wish to and nothing will happen to you.

I get that because of some schools training methods you might liken it to the military but trust me it's nothing like it.


Your last line reminded me of something a great guy I used to work with said one day...

We were in a department meeting when I was working in college athletics. I had to sit through a part where each coach had to talk about what went right and what went wrong the previous year. One coach who was a bit squirrelly (although a genuinely nice guy) made this speech about how our rival got lucky last year because we were unprepared for them and were young, but this year we’ve got a bunch of veterans who are ready for war. He mentioned war about a half dozen times in his tirade.

The next guy’s turn to speak was our women’s basketball coach. He had the most memorable speech I’ve heard in quite a while...

“This isn’t war. This is nothing like war. I know; I fought in one. Thank you.”

I guess being a Vietnam combat veteran and having to sit there and listen to some late 20 something year old idiot rant about “going to war” will elicit that response

I miss working with that guy. He always had a great no-nonsense view on everything. He knew how to put things into perspective better than anyone I’ve met.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 1703


PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does a colored belt in martial arts represent both rank and grade, also an identification of knowledge and skill in a singular system or style?

Could this type of system be considered to be similar to a pyramid money making scheme?
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MatsuShinshii
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 716
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan 1979 to Present, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Does a colored belt in martial arts represent both rank and grade, also an identification of knowledge and skill in a singular system or style?

Could this type of system be considered to be similar to a pyramid money making scheme?


It's supposed to but that doesn't mean that it does.

Yes and no. Depends on the instructor, school, organization.

The belt (whatever color) should represent that knowledge and skill level of the grade it represents. I have never appreciated the rainbow system of belts but really can't stand the tags, stripes, hashes and bars that are used to break down each grade even more. This is about money pure and simple.

I see no need for the multitude of belts. White and black are plenty in my mind. It's gotten so bad that there are now different shades of color and I even saw a camouflage belt. Really? Worse, then you get into stripes, tags, split colors, etc. etc.

Just how many Kyu grades are there? We have 8 and I know some have 10. So where do all these colors fit in when you can see grade charts with up to 20 colors or combinations of colors. This I think is a scam and all about money. Well Johnny you now get to test for your fifth stripe on that white belt, that'll be another $30.00.

It's criminal.
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Lupin1
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 1520
Location: NH USA
Styles: Isshinryu

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is about money pure and simple.


It depends. I teach at a free school. We don't charge for anything. Some of the kids even get their uniforms provided for them because they can't afford them. We still have eight belts for kids before Shodan because it serves as a good motivational tool and keeps them coming. And we don't want them coming for the money (we don't get any money). We want them to keep coming because we want them to learn karate and have a positive place to come and get some exercise and get some good influences and learn to work towards and achieve goals.

There are benefits to the belts system beyond just getting more money. The problem is that people abuse it to get more money and it gives the whole thing a bad rep.
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singularity6
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 447
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lupin1 wrote:
Quote:
This is about money pure and simple.


It depends. I teach at a free school. We don't charge for anything. Some of the kids even get their uniforms provided for them because they can't afford them. We still have eight belts for kids before Shodan because it serves as a good motivational tool and keeps them coming. And we don't want them coming for the money (we don't get any money). We want them to keep coming because we want them to learn karate and have a positive place to come and get some exercise and get some good influences and learn to work towards and achieve goals.

There are benefits to the belts system beyond just getting more money. The problem is that people abuse it to get more money and it gives the whole thing a bad rep.


We pay $25/month to train. Testings are free, and the colored belts are awarded to the students (by awarded, they are GIVEN to the student by our master instructor.) While I'd be fine with having one belt all the way through, many people do like the idea of being promoted... it helps with motivation!
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 12907
Location: Owasso, OK
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one thing about black belts being handed out like candy is that you'll get either a sour one or a sweet one!! If you get my meaning!



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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1372

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the many reasons why seeing past grades and belts is so difficult is that, the majority of people think in terms of end goals instead of the process. Giving a grade or belt to someone who has not taken adequate time to go through the process is like passing a class without having completed any assignments or doing any reading.

In the same way, the skills learn and knowledge gained until graduation are what makes graduation meaningful. Understanding this is the most important step in knowing how far one has come and how much further one has to go. A blackbelt or any other end goal is irrelevant because one is never really “done” unless one quits.
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MatsuShinshii
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 716
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan 1979 to Present, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
One of the many reasons why seeing past grades and belts is so difficult is that, the majority of people think in terms of end goals instead of the process. Giving a grade or belt to someone who has not taken adequate time to go through the process is like passing a class without having completed any assignments or doing any reading.

In the same way, the skills learn and knowledge gained until graduation are what makes graduation meaningful. Understanding this is the most important step in knowing how far one has come and how much further one has to go. A blackbelt or any other end goal is irrelevant because one is never really “done” unless one quits.


To the bold - 1000% agree! Well said and absolutely true.

To the underlined - Again I could not have said it better. This is absolutely true.

Solid points!
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
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MatsuShinshii
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 716
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan 1979 to Present, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
The one thing about black belts being handed out like candy is that you'll get either a sour one or a sweet one!! If you get my meaning!




I get it. Funny, sad and true all at the same time.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1372

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good question to ask students of all levels and ages before testing them is “What is more important to you? Getting your XYZ belt or getting better at you already know?”

Whatever the answer, it will be surprising and also give a good idea of how much a student understands about progress in martial arts.
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