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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
I can’t speak for anyone other than myself and the places I’ve been. By the same token, I’ve seen bjj guys go to judo with their blue belts on.... in quite certain there aren’t blue belts in judo....

I wear a white belt in judo because that’s my rank- in judo. I hope that the belt you were wearing would be whichever tank you’ve acquired in THAT style would be implied....


I feel like if one is just their training, and they just wear their regular uniform and belt to have the complete uniform, and they aren't necessarily pursuing rank in that school, then I think I'd be ok with it. If they would happen to decide to start trying to attain rank in that school, then it might change the situation.


I'm not. Too many frauds out there with blue belts in BJJ teaching grappling techniques with a black belt on because its a karate school. They are being intentionally deceptive.

I nor any black belt I've known has ever "accidentally" worn their BJJ rank to a Judo school. We all put on our white belts. The same can be said for any of the Judoka that have ever jumped into a BJJ class.

Its perfectly ok if you're not pursuing rank in that style, but then that means you're a white belt, eh?
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1717

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it out of touch to think that putting any and all previous ranks aside when training at a different school is the minimum for a guest? And isn’t doing the same the first step for anyone seeking to become a student under a different instructor who offers to teach something new or a new way of training?

Why besides misguided ego would anyone insist or even ask to keep their belt or rank knowing that skills exist with or without these things?
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14336
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen schools allow the new student, who's a BB in another style, keep their BB while allowing said student to earn rank in the new style that their learning without ever taking their BB off. While I might understand the reason(s) behind this, I agree that ego gets in the way much too often.



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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
I've seen schools allow the new student, who's a BB in another style, keep their BB while allowing said student to earn rank in the new style that their learning without ever taking their BB off. While I might understand the reason(s) behind this, I agree that ego gets in the way much too often.




To the bold above, Ego, you hit the nail on the head.

I personally don't understand this thought process or what is in someones mind when thinking that a grade transfers to a new art. It's great that you earned a BB in another art. Wear the belt when you study that art. In a new art you're a white belt. You know nothing about the new art so in what universe would someone think that wearing a BB is acceptable. It sends the wrong message all the way around.

If a student has a problem wearing a white belt then they know where to find the door. I have never worn a black belt when starting a new art nor would I ever think it was ok to do so. Conversely I've never allowed a student to wear a BB until they had earned it.

Ego Seems to be common place anymore. Humility seems to be the exception.

Personally I see no need to feed into someones arrogance and ego. Wear a white belt/ wear no belt or hit the door. Personally I wouldn't waste my time on someone that would be arrogant enough to presume they could walk through the Dojo door wearing anything other than a belt that defines what they are in my art, a beginner!

The way I was brought up in the arts... I wouldn't even think to ask to wear my BB from another art or presume I could. It's rude. But then I'm that "traditional" type of guy.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2360
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wearing a black belt in a dojo outside your organization needs a bit of context.

My CI has a good relationship with a judo teacher who’s dojo used to be next door to our dojo (they shared a wall). The judo instructor would come to our dojo and teach our students some judo stuff. My CI would go to his dojo and do the same. They’d wear their own belts. Why? They were guest instructors. This was before I joined, unfortunately. The judo teacher has moved a few hours away, but he has made trips back since. Last time was a few weeks before I joined.

My former sensei had a childhood friend who moved to Japan and earned godan in jujutsu. He came back home for several months when his father passed away so he could get his father’s affairs in order. He regularly worked out at our karate dojo and taught us jujutsu stuff while he was here. He wore his belt and gi. He was a long-term guest of sorts, and him and my sensei at the time were learning from each other. Neither one was seeking rank nor formal training from each other.

Both of the above situations (and ones like it) are perfectly acceptable reasons to wear your own belt in someone else’s dojo IMO. They’re not formal students and not looking to advance in rank. They’re exchanging information.

Then there’s the people my CI told me about over the years. One was a judo sandan who wanted to join our dojo. He was told he’d have to start out as a white belt and earn ranks like everyone else. If he learned the material at a faster pace, he’d promote faster. If not, he wouldn’t. The guy couldn’t understand, or better yet refused to accept, why his judo rank didn’t transfer to our karate dojo. He felt he earned his 3rd dan and should be allowed to wear his belt as he saw fit. My CI told him he respected his judo rank, but he hasn’t earned any rank in his dojo. The guy walked out. Numerous TKD and other karate style students also didn’t join because they thought they should be allowed to wear the belt they earned elsewhere.

I told my CI my previous experience when I first visited. My former teacher was a former student of his former teacher (if you can follow that one ). He didn’t doubt my former rank nor experience, it he told me “you can’t wear your old belt here, as it wasn’t earned under me nor anyone else in our organization. You’ll start at white belt, and you’ll advance through the ranks according to how well you do. I won’t hold you back and I won’t push you through. You’ll most likely promote a lot quicker than average, but it’ll be because you earned it here.” I told him “I just want to train, regardless of what belt I’m wearing. I’d rather start over and earn every belt.”

Other schools offered to let me wear my old belt. I guess in this day and age they’re afraid of losing potential students. I don’t agree with that at all, but they’ got to do what it takes to pay the bills I guess.

I liked my former sensei’s policy on students with previous experience - he’d have them wear a white belt for 3-6 months, then promote them to the rank he felt they were at. Most people accepted that rank and stayed. Some left after he granted a rank because it wasn’t the rank they wanted.

Long story short - if you’re a guest who’s not looking to be a formal student, wear your belt. If you’re looking to be a formal student, start at white belt. Most importantly, shut up and train. If you can’t train while wearing a different belt, why are you really training anyway?
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14336
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest Instructor, yes!! Student, no; not even in the slightest.



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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
Wearing a black belt in a dojo outside your organization needs a bit of context.

My CI has a good relationship with a judo teacher who’s dojo used to be next door to our dojo (they shared a wall). The judo instructor would come to our dojo and teach our students some judo stuff. My CI would go to his dojo and do the same. They’d wear their own belts. Why? They were guest instructors. This was before I joined, unfortunately. The judo teacher has moved a few hours away, but he has made trips back since. Last time was a few weeks before I joined.

My former sensei had a childhood friend who moved to Japan and earned godan in jujutsu. He came back home for several months when his father passed away so he could get his father’s affairs in order. He regularly worked out at our karate dojo and taught us jujutsu stuff while he was here. He wore his belt and gi. He was a long-term guest of sorts, and him and my sensei at the time were learning from each other. Neither one was seeking rank nor formal training from each other.

Both of the above situations (and ones like it) are perfectly acceptable reasons to wear your own belt in someone else’s dojo IMO. They’re not formal students and not looking to advance in rank. They’re exchanging information.

Then there’s the people my CI told me about over the years. One was a judo sandan who wanted to join our dojo. He was told he’d have to start out as a white belt and earn ranks like everyone else. If he learned the material at a faster pace, he’d promote faster. If not, he wouldn’t. The guy couldn’t understand, or better yet refused to accept, why his judo rank didn’t transfer to our karate dojo. He felt he earned his 3rd dan and should be allowed to wear his belt as he saw fit. My CI told him he respected his judo rank, but he hasn’t earned any rank in his dojo. The guy walked out. Numerous TKD and other karate style students also didn’t join because they thought they should be allowed to wear the belt they earned elsewhere.

I told my CI my previous experience when I first visited. My former teacher was a former student of his former teacher (if you can follow that one ). He didn’t doubt my former rank nor experience, it he told me “you can’t wear your old belt here, as it wasn’t earned under me nor anyone else in our organization. You’ll start at white belt, and you’ll advance through the ranks according to how well you do. I won’t hold you back and I won’t push you through. You’ll most likely promote a lot quicker than average, but it’ll be because you earned it here.” I told him “I just want to train, regardless of what belt I’m wearing. I’d rather start over and earn every belt.”

Other schools offered to let me wear my old belt. I guess in this day and age they’re afraid of losing potential students. I don’t agree with that at all, but they’ got to do what it takes to pay the bills I guess.

I liked my former sensei’s policy on students with previous experience - he’d have them wear a white belt for 3-6 months, then promote them to the rank he felt they were at. Most people accepted that rank and stayed. Some left after he granted a rank because it wasn’t the rank they wanted.

Long story short - if you’re a guest who’s not looking to be a formal student, wear your belt. If you’re looking to be a formal student, start at white belt. Most importantly, shut up and train. If you can’t train while wearing a different belt, why are you really training anyway?


To the bold above; yes they wear their BB if they are teaching. If I get invited by another art to teach then I wear my grade as I am there in the capacity of a teacher not a student. If I were going there to learn I would wear a white belt as I would be considered a beginner.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
Wearing a black belt in a dojo outside your organization needs a bit of context.

My CI has a good relationship with a judo teacher who’s dojo used to be next door to our dojo (they shared a wall). The judo instructor would come to our dojo and teach our students some judo stuff. My CI would go to his dojo and do the same. They’d wear their own belts. Why? They were guest instructors. This was before I joined, unfortunately. The judo teacher has moved a few hours away, but he has made trips back since. Last time was a few weeks before I joined.

My former sensei had a childhood friend who moved to Japan and earned godan in jujutsu. He came back home for several months when his father passed away so he could get his father’s affairs in order. He regularly worked out at our karate dojo and taught us jujutsu stuff while he was here. He wore his belt and gi. He was a long-term guest of sorts, and him and my sensei at the time were learning from each other. Neither one was seeking rank nor formal training from each other.

Both of the above situations (and ones like it) are perfectly acceptable reasons to wear your own belt in someone else’s dojo IMO. They’re not formal students and not looking to advance in rank. They’re exchanging information.

Then there’s the people my CI told me about over the years. One was a judo sandan who wanted to join our dojo. He was told he’d have to start out as a white belt and earn ranks like everyone else. If he learned the material at a faster pace, he’d promote faster. If not, he wouldn’t. The guy couldn’t understand, or better yet refused to accept, why his judo rank didn’t transfer to our karate dojo. He felt he earned his 3rd dan and should be allowed to wear his belt as he saw fit. My CI told him he respected his judo rank, but he hasn’t earned any rank in his dojo. The guy walked out. Numerous TKD and other karate style students also didn’t join because they thought they should be allowed to wear the belt they earned elsewhere.

I told my CI my previous experience when I first visited. My former teacher was a former student of his former teacher (if you can follow that one ). He didn’t doubt my former rank nor experience, it he told me “you can’t wear your old belt here, as it wasn’t earned under me nor anyone else in our organization. You’ll start at white belt, and you’ll advance through the ranks according to how well you do. I won’t hold you back and I won’t push you through. You’ll most likely promote a lot quicker than average, but it’ll be because you earned it here.” I told him “I just want to train, regardless of what belt I’m wearing. I’d rather start over and earn every belt.”

Other schools offered to let me wear my old belt. I guess in this day and age they’re afraid of losing potential students. I don’t agree with that at all, but they’ got to do what it takes to pay the bills I guess.

I liked my former sensei’s policy on students with previous experience - he’d have them wear a white belt for 3-6 months, then promote them to the rank he felt they were at. Most people accepted that rank and stayed. Some left after he granted a rank because it wasn’t the rank they wanted.

Long story short - if you’re a guest who’s not looking to be a formal student, wear your belt. If you’re looking to be a formal student, start at white belt. Most importantly, shut up and train. If you can’t train while wearing a different belt, why are you really training anyway?


To the bold, this is a student. I would enforce the wearing of the white belt as well. In total agreement with your instructor.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1717

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest is instructors coming in to share whatever they do are a different thing than a person coming in for a trial or seeking to join as a student. Within the same style or organization, where one starts under a new instructor or new dojo depends on the instructor. Most of the time an instructor will want to evaluate a student with previous experience before making a decision.

Very few martial arts practitioners will agree that dan grades are universal and apply anywhere. A dan in TKD doesn’t equal a dan in jujutsu. It should be logical and obvious. It boggles the mind that anyone would insist that it does.

Nobody would ever claim, for instance, that their degree in Litterature transfers to, or otherwise applies to Biology. If that person wanted to do anything in that field, they would have to start at the beginning.
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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2360
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
Guest is instructors coming in to share whatever they do are a different thing than a person coming in for a trial or seeking to join as a student. Within the same style or organization, where one starts under a new instructor or new dojo depends on the instructor. Most of the time an instructor will want to evaluate a student with previous experience before making a decision.

Very few martial arts practitioners will agree that dan grades are universal and apply anywhere. A dan in TKD doesn’t equal a dan in jujutsu. It should be logical and obvious. It boggles the mind that anyone would insist that it does.

Nobody would ever claim, for instance, that their degree in Litterature transfers to, or otherwise applies to Biology. If that person wanted to do anything in that field, they would have to start at the beginning.


I can pretty much everything you said common sense. But my question becomes more apparent every day, unfortunately - why is it called “common sense” when it’s just not very common? It seems common sense becomes less common everyday. Maybe it’s just me.
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