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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:25 pm    Post subject: Boxgrappling? Reply with quote

When boxers bout with grapplers, have you noticed anything unusual?

I have noticed that one is drawn to the opponent's head while the other is focused on the opponent's leg and depending how well they achieve their mission against each other, there is a greater chance of winning the bout.

As the grappler's intent is to make constant physical contact with the opponent while the boxer is making contact but only by striking.

As the grappler wants to take the fight to the ground while the boxer wants to stay standing on both feet.

Both methods of fighting are very effective, yet I don't recall anyone using both attributes equally.

Something that is equal for both grapplers and boxers, is both having alot of fully resistant training partners.

Yes many boxers have some grappling experience as some grapplers have some boxing experience, but one person having both; who?

Who would be the best Boxgrappler if there was such a thing?


Last edited by Alan Armstrong on Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many years ago, Boxing including various throws and grappling maneuvers. As the gloves came along, that went away.

I imagine there are quite a few MMA competitors out there that would pass as proficient in both areas now.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Ooppss! gone and edited the wrong message box above; sorry!)

Thanks bushido_man96 for your comment.

The MMA does highlight or raise many interesting points about styles and techniques.

With boxing against grappling there is most definitely a fine line that each fighter needs to be aware of, or face the consequences.

While the boxer is actually fist fighting with no hidden agenda, other than to single mindedly to knock out the opposition, while the grappler's intent is more geared towards controlling the opponent with many strategies, constantly limiting the boxers options for escape.

As the Boxer is well aware of the dangers, what can happen in the clinches, that hands over the advantage to the grappler.

The danger for the grappler against the boxer while rolling is counter strikes to the head from the boxer's elbows; as the boxer switches mode, from fists to elbows, the grappler ironically tries (when mounted) to slip punches like a boxer, which works against punches but not elbows.

My hunch is Boxers (particularly from Scotland) will be rising in popularity over grapplers, putting boxing back on top once again.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're talking strictly Boxers vs. strictly Grapplers, I'm not so sure. Early UFCs proved that out. The boxers have to get some ground experience, and vise versa. It kind of makes me think of this whole Connor MacGregor vs Floyd Mayweather conversation. Put Floyd in the MMA ring with MacGregor, and he's probably going to get owned, and be ugly, if he doesn't have much grappling experience. Put Connor in a boxing ring with Money, and it will be ugly the other way. Floyd would dance like its prom night, and Connor would be lucky to land one square shot I think. Moving forward, its got to come down to cross-training.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
If you're talking strictly Boxers vs. strictly Grapplers, I'm not so sure. Early UFCs proved that out. The boxers have to get some ground experience, and vise versa. It kind of makes me think of this whole Connor MacGregor vs Floyd Mayweather conversation. Put Floyd in the MMA ring with MacGregor, and he's probably going to get owned, and be ugly, if he doesn't have much grappling experience. Put Connor in a boxing ring with Money, and it will be ugly the other way. Floyd would dance like its prom night, and Connor would be lucky to land one square shot I think. Moving forward, its got to come down to cross-training.
Cross training to be a Boxgrappler is the idea.

Or be a fantastic grappler or a great boxer.

I am predicting, that there will be a resurgence of boxing, due to its adaptability tactics to defend and defeat grapplers.

Grappling and boxing were the two main types of fighting as I was growing up in the 1950/60s. I never heard of anyone saying one was better than the other; there was just a mutual respect that these two styles were, what one did or needed to learn if wanting to become good at fighting; then UFC showed up and rivalry between the two disciplines was unleashed.
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TJ-Jitsu
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
If you're talking strictly Boxers vs. strictly Grapplers, I'm not so sure. Early UFCs proved that out. The boxers have to get some ground experience, and vise versa. It kind of makes me think of this whole Connor MacGregor vs Floyd Mayweather conversation. Put Floyd in the MMA ring with MacGregor, and he's probably going to get owned, and be ugly, if he doesn't have much grappling experience. Put Connor in a boxing ring with Money, and it will be ugly the other way. Floyd would dance like its prom night, and Connor would be lucky to land one square shot I think. Moving forward, its got to come down to cross-training.
Cross training to be a Boxgrappler is the idea.

Or be a fantastic grappler or a great boxer.

I am predicting, that there will be a resurgence of boxing, due to its adaptability tactics to defend and defeat grapplers.

Grappling and boxing were the two main types of fighting as I was growing up in the 1950/60s. I never heard of anyone saying one was better than the other; there was just a mutual respect that these two styles were, what one did or needed to learn if wanting to become good at fighting; then UFC showed up and rivalry between the two disciplines was unleashed.


I don't think theres any resurgence of boxing, at least not yet. First off, boxing (or any striking style for that matter) doesn't have any effective grappling defenses because they're striking... not grappling techniques.

That said, one of the biggest weaknesses that current fighters have (compared to boxers) is a weak jab combined with poor head movement. The jab sets everything up in "normal" boxing, but fighters can ignore this in the cage because they can bully their opponents (i.e. drive into them like a bull) and worry moreso about haymakers and the like (which is the common MO for your typical generic MMA fighter). Sometimes you get a fighter that has a good jab and can use it exceptionally well, such as St Pierre.

Poor head movement relates to the stances that the fighters carry. Boxers will sit much lower and much wider allowing for much more versatile movement. They also need only worry about punches as everything else is illegal in boxing. Such a low and wide stance is not desirable when your opponent has options to kick, knee, or drive for a takedown. As a result most fighters have a stance wider than a thai fighter for example, but more narrow than a classic boxer would.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps not a resurgence of boxing in the USA but in other places I believe it is happening.

Hands are the primary weapons for fighting with against another person, therefore boxing is and will remain viable, until humans evolve to having tentacles, instead of arms.

Boxing is becoming increasingly popular in cross fit circles, as one gym offers the "3Bs" Boxing, Ballet and Bicycling.

Two Boxing clubs opened up recently, very close to where I live "FightLand" and "Brooklyn Boxfit"

Also other boxing clubs that have special reduced rates for the unemployed are full of people pounding bags.

Martial art clubs are not marketing themselves as well as boxing clubs are, in my neck of the woods at least.

Boxing has had a bad rap in its past due to organizations making a killing from fighters as corruption follows money.

UFC will have its problems as well, that by the way, has done an excellent job at marketing grappling; like everything else in this world; this to will change.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem I see is how a minimal amount of ground fighting experience can nullify years of training in stand-up. That was one of the things that was demonstrated in the early UFC's, and it still holds true. Sure, stand-up styles can train to defend wrestling-style takedowns, but it isn't enough. Wrestlers train daily in practice to takedown other wrestlers, people who know how to do takedowns, and know how to defend takedowns. And if the can hit a successful takedown against a takedown and takedown-defense specialist, then a stand-up practitioner who works on take-down defense once a week isn't likely going to be able to avoid getting taken down. A ground fighter will eat a few stand-up techniques to get the person to the ground, too. I've done some research on this, and over the course of the years of various challenge matches between strictly stand-up and grappling styles, the stand-up stylists haven't fared to well. I wrote an article on the topic some time ago, if you've got some free time to check it out: MMA: The Marriage of Martial Arts
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
The problem I see is how a minimal amount of ground fighting experience can nullify years of training in stand-up. That was one of the things that was demonstrated in the early UFC's, and it still holds true. Sure, stand-up styles can train to defend wrestling-style takedowns, but it isn't enough. Wrestlers train daily in practice to takedown other wrestlers, people who know how to do takedowns, and know how to defend takedowns. And if the can hit a successful takedown against a takedown and takedown-defense specialist, then a stand-up practitioner who works on take-down defense once a week isn't likely going to be able to avoid getting taken down. A ground fighter will eat a few stand-up techniques to get the person to the ground, too. I've done some research on this, and over the course of the years of various challenge matches between strictly stand-up and grappling styles, the stand-up stylists haven't fared to well. I wrote an article on the topic some time ago, if you've got some free time to check it out: MMA: The Marriage of Martial Arts
Read your article in the link; thanks!

Kajukenbo and Defendo also are pre MMA of today. What makes them different than today's version? Today's MMA is a highly popular publicized sport.

As in the future the MMA will be different than it is today; perhaps the question is how?

As with new styles of fine art they are always a reaction to the style in vogue and not necessarily having to be better and also with style with clothing once again it is confined within its own boundaries; as it is material draped or covering a person's body.

There are what we would call exotic martial art styles in India and Africa that are not "Octagon" tested as yet.

Also what we call "Extreme" martial arts, just might make a breakthrough and perhaps be able to make it transcend in to reality based martial arts, in the near future.

As Bruce Lee said about JKD, nothing about it is new.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, nothing is new. What changes are focus and application. That's more of how we get the different styles than anything else.
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