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wilberbear
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:25 am    Post subject: Breaking originates from a Korean art Kiai-Jutsu in Japanese Reply with quote

It is true that board doesn't hit back. Breaking is originally not from Karate, Taekwondo, Kung Fu but from an art called Kiai-jutsu which is called Kihapsul in Korean. It's Korean origin; it is from an art called sundo which is called Kooksundo today. It's the Korean version of Yoga & Qiqong. That's the origin of Breaking. I will make a post on this.

Breaking originates from a Korean art Kiai-Jutsu in Japanese language. Simply put, Kihapsul (pronounced Kiai-Jutsu in Japanese) always has had Breaking Game including Hand Breaking. Karate didn't have Breaking (Tameshiwari) until 1950's when Mas Oyama (Baedal Choi) introduced the concept of the game into Karate. That's also why Tameshiwari hits differently from Karate particularly with shoulder moving (Tameshiwari) vs stationary & square (Karate).

Most people shouldn't know these facts because Karate tends to hide it. However, if you are serious with history, then you've come across the name Kiai-Jutsu once or twice as well as Oyama's role in Karate's Breaking history.

Here are my references.

http://seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-oyama.html
"After we had devised our own breaking methods“

http://www.kyokushinkan.org/en/?page_id=2122
”Among Mas Oyama’s many accomplishments, he is perhaps best known for introducing tameshiwari or “stone breaking” into the practice of modern karate.“

http://www.gaijinkarate.co.uk/tameshiwari-power-breaking/
“Traditional Japanese martial art schools do not place little if any, emphasis on breaking, although the art of breaking objects is known as tameshiwari”

https://books.google.ca/books?id=39oDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA66&dq=black+belt+magazine+july+1987&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=black%20belt%20magazine%20july%201987&f=false
Quoting from Black Belt Magazine July 1987, "Kyokushinkai karate master Masutatsu (Mas) Oyama (left) did an in-depth study on tameshiwari, the art of breaking. He subsequently became one of the foremost authorities on the subject (far left)."

I also have a lot of Korean newspaper records with Kihapsul & Hand Breaking, but I see no point in posting when you can't read Korean. These English references suffice.

So, board doesn't hit back. Breaking originates from Korean Sundo. It's not originally from a Fight Game like Kung Fu, Taekwondo, Karate or anything. As for the techniques, Kihapsul also has many other games like pushing a heavy truck with bare hands or wrestling. They have created, developed, accumulated many techniques & games over the thousands of years of believing in Ki energy (whether it's real or not, what they have accumulated is real). They have always done Hand Breaking whether in the medieval era (also have records) or in the modern era (recorded even in the 1900~1940) or even today (Kihapsul still exists even today in Korea; Korea is just not that well known).

Also, it is obviously false that Kihapsul can't create Breaking or powerful strikes on its own. If a sport can create such on its own, another sport like Kihapsul also can do it. Aside from setting straight on whether they could do it or not, they did do it. Breaking Game including Hand Breaking has always existed anyway in Kihapsul. It could happen; it did happen.

The word Kihapsul refers not only to Breaking (Breaking is included including Hand Breaking) but a whole set of all such Power Games including pushing a truck or getting hit by wooden clubs or making a truck pass over your stomach. Kihapsul also goes by many other names like Charyuk, Yukki, Yukye.

As for the muscle training, Korean used to lift up a large boulder (Deldoldelgi) above the chest level, beyond the shoulder or head. Even without the full extension of triceps, it's a great workout especially in the older days without the gym equipment like today.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solid post; thank you for sharing it, as well as the links!!



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truejim
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Breaking originates from a Korean art Kiai-Jutsu in Japa Reply with quote

I would be interested in learning more! None of the references you provide mention kihapsul. When I Google search on kihapsul, I find references to acupressure and controlled breathing, no references to kihapsul and breaking.

I did find a kouksundo reference here: http://www.kouksundo.com/ehtm/kouksundo_origin.php but the claims are pretty bold! "Kouksundo appeared approximately 9,7000 years ago..." Considering that recorded history (i.e., written records) are roughly 5,000 years old, this claim would mean that somebody has been able to trace kouksundo's history back an additional 4,700 years before the start of recorded history!
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wilberbear
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are Korean newspapers from "Naver Old News Archive" that mentions Hand Breaking & Kihapsul in the 1930's. I saw no point bringing them here because it's in Korean.

http://newslibrary.naver.com/viewer/index.nhn?articleId=1934111800209102008&editNo=2&printCount=1&publishDate=1934-11-18&officeId=00020&pageNo=2&printNo=5012&publishType=00010

In Korean language, the old newspaper mentions breaking a beer bottle with a fist, breaking tiles with fist in 1934.

Graham Noble's essay mentions Kiai jutsu. Kihapsul is just the original pronunciation of Kiai Jutsu. Kihap is read Kiai in Japanese. Jutsu is read Sul in Korean.

The point is how Breaking Game didn't exist in Karate but how it always existed in Kihapsul / Kiai jutsu including Hand Breaking.

http://seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-oyama.html

"Breaking objects with the hands and feet has probably existed in the eastern martial arts for hundreds of years. In Japan it certainly predated the introduction of karate in the 1920s. William Bankier, the strongman "Apollo", wrote about the edge of the hand blow in his 1905 book "Jiu-Jitsu. What It Really Is", adding that "Some of the Japs who made a study of this sort of thing have been known to actually break very large stones with their bare hand. To such an extent had these men developed the heel or side part of the hand that it almost became as hard as stone." During his military service in France in World War 1, Bob Hoffman, the founder of "Strength and Health" magazine saw an example of breaking in Paris, of all places: "In France during the war, Bob Hoffman told me that he saw a Japanese sidewalk performer actually break slabs of marble with chop blows of his hand. The side of his hand was about half an inch thicker than a normal hand". In 1940 the "Japanese American Courier" reported that "Marking its 34th anniversary the Tacoma (judo) dojo will hold its annual tournament Sunday afternoon at the Buddhist Church auditorium . . . Over 40 black belts are listed for action. An additional feature on the programme will be Masato Tamura's 'rock breaking' demonstration via the ancient Japanese art of "kiai jutsu". He will also oppose a quintet of picked black belts". Tamura was a well known judoka who had got his third dan during Jigoro Kano's visit to America in 1938. In none of these accounts, incidentally, is there any mention of karate."
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wilberbear
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, Breaking Game originally wasn't from any fighting game but from Strongman Feat not that different from circus (gymnastics is different from circus).

Even the Western World had it. Such just became extinct after Karate took its spot for Breaking. In Korea, however, Kooksundo, Charyuk, Kihapsul continued even up to today.

" Many years back, in the later part of the nineteenth century, there was a strongman called Sebastian Miller, who was known as "The Rock Breaker". A report in the "Cambridge Jeffersonian" newspaper (Ohio) of 1 March 1899 stated that "A strongman has turned up in Philadelphia. He calls himself Sebastian Miller and a distinguished gathering of physicians and professors witnessed some of his feats of strength in the Pennsylvania hospital a day ago.

"Miller stripped to the waist in order that the physicians might see the workings of his gigantic muscles and he stepped to a light pine table on which were placed several cobblestones.

"A large stone was held in place and Miller, giving three powerful swings with his right arm, brought his fist down on the stone. The first blow cracked it, the second broke it, and the third shattered it into bits. In doing this Miller wrapped a piece of cloth around his hand to protect it from being cut.

"But Miller's strength is not all in his arms. With a harness he has raised 3,500 pounds, and with his hands he can lift 1,800 pounds. With three successive blows of his fist he has broken a block of Quincy granite 5 feet long, 4 feet broad, and 6 inches thick".

"His method" wrote David Webster, "was to lay a stone on a table and hold another a little above it, then smash down on the top one (with his bare fist), the impact breaking the weaker stone". A 1900 article in Bernar McFadden's "Physical Culture" magazine was probably referring to Miller when it stated that "Some years ago a 'strong man' travelling trough the country created quite a sensation by breaking rocks with his fist. But, strictly speaking, he did not break them with his fist. He would hold a stone a little above another stone, then he would hit the upper one hard with his right fist, which was bandaged, and break it really by knocking it against the lower one".

Sebastian Miller's stone breaking method, then, was similar to the one used by Mas Oyama a half a century later."

http://seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-oyama.html

"In the 1950s George Jowett, who was a prolific writer on anything to do with physical culture, advertised a course called "How to Break a Rock With Your Bare Hands". This seems to be extremely rare now; I haven't seen it and cannot say whether it had anything to do with karate or was some kind of continuation of the Sebastian Miller tradition of breaking. Very occasionally you would read about other professional strongmen who included breaking feats it in their act. There was Emil Bregulla, who was active around the early 20th century and who would break rocks with his hands. Interestingly, like Mas Oyama, Bregulla also used to wrestle bulls. Judging by the posters for his act, Al (Aloysius) Marx, another old time strong man would smash stones with his fists."

That is the true source of Breaking culture. Strongman Feat. It's not from fighting game. Even the Western World had Breaking before Karate took their spot. In Korea, Charyuk, Kihapsul, Kooksundo still continued to today though.
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wilberbear
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for whether Kooksundo existed in Korea or not, there are also historical records & newspaper records on Sundo & Sunsul. Kooksundo went by the name Sundo before adding the word Kook. There are 1900~1940 old Korean newspaper records on Sundo just like there are 1900~1940 old Korean newspaper records on Kihapsul (aside from the 1900~1940 Western records on Kiai Jutsu provided by Graham Noble).
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wilberbear
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was obvious from how Karate has weak strikes & how Karate hits differently from Tameshiwari. Many people can notice how Tameshiwari seems to hit hard, but when they actually get to see Karate, it doesn't seem as powerful as Tameshiwari. That's because they strike in different ways.

www.washingtoncitypaper.com/articles/39469/straight-dope-the-physics-of-punching-someone-in-the-face "Martial arts punches generally involve much less force than those in boxing. A study of 12 karate black belts showed so-called reverse punches delivered an average force of 325 pounds, with the strongest measuring 412 pounds. Short-range power punches averaged 178 pounds."
If you did not learn Tameshiwari but learned only Karate, your strikes are nowhere as good as Tameshiwari. Karate hits weakly.


https://books.google.ca/books?id=EMlXzpB4IpcC&pg=PA155&dq=strength+necessary+for+the+successful+performance+of+Tameshiwari+is+achieved+by+marshalling+all+of+the+body+reserves&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=strength%20necessary%20for%20the%20successful%20performance%20of%20Tameshiwari%20is%20achieved%20by%20marshalling%20all%20of%20the%20body%20reserves&f=false
https://books.google.ca/books?id=EMlXzpB4IpcC&pg=PA156&dq=Speed+is+dependent+upon+many+things+including+muscular+strength,+flexibility,+bending+and+stretching+of+the+hips,+and+quick+reflexes&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Speed%20is%20dependent%20upon%20many%20things%20including%20muscular%20strength%2C%20flexibility%2C%20bending%20and%20stretching%20of%20the%20hips%2C%20and%20quick%20reflexes&f=false

Quoting from Oyama’s book “Mas Oyama’s Essential Karate”, “the strength necessary for the successful performance of Tameshiwari is achieved by marshalling all of the body reserves. Especially important is power generated up through the legs”. Quoting from the same book, “the two most important things in Tameshiwari are power and speed. Speed is dependent upon many things including muscular strength, flexibility, bending and stretching of the hips, and quick reflexes.” So, even Oyama says the same. Hard hitting is about “leg leverage & speed”. It was obvious. Why would it be less speed when muscles use power, contract, “move it”. Also, leg leverage for mass. We went over how dangling doesn’t add to mass in motion.

According to how Karate does even today as well as the historical records like textbooks, Karate has always been like Kung Fu. Both Kung Fu & Karate “do not move shoulders” nor “lean legs forward” nor “flip foot forward”. They don’t have the leg leverage nor the proper shoulder power. Karate’s shoulders are square & stationary. Tameshiwari does not hit the same way as Karate in none of the traits: speed nor leg leverage through push-shoulder.
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wilberbear
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, using a dog or a cow as a target for Breaking Game has nothing to do with whether Breaking Game is originally from Strongman Feat (Kihapsul) or fighting game. It is a logical fallacy “affirming the consequent” pretending as if “if A then B. B. Hence, A” which is false. Aside from, of course, the irrelevances as Kihapsul has always had Breaking Game (including Hand Breaking) "anyway" regardless of how you claim its origin. Not to mention how Korean always has had many different Fight Games anyway. It is just that the facts "happen to be" that the origin of Breaking Game is from Strongman Feat, not from fighting game. Just like fighting games can create powerful strikes (apparently), Strongman Feat games can also create powerful strikes. Such creation of techniques is what sports do. Not to mention how striking has not been done in a special way but done the same way as a good pushing (leg leverage through shoulder striking through with speed & power pouring over the target) in Korea, similar to pro-wrestling. Big Show has shown 1809 PSI for his punches. How the things are "anyway" & what you claim with your "thinking" are 2 different things.
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wilberbear
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This news is taken rather well. I came across these threads while googling, & just wanted to inform the correct facts. Thought there might be more resistance despite the references & links because of being Karate forum as a sense of loyalty over facts.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wherever the art of breaking, Tamishiwara, came from, I'm thankful for it; an intricate part of the style of Karate that I've trained in for over 5 decades.

Again, wilberbear, I'm very thankful for the links as well as the information that you've supplied here at KF. Great find!!



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