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GS718Trek
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 32

Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu/Judo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:43 am    Post subject: Can a Shodan(1st degree) promote students in rank? Reply with quote

Can a 1st degree black belt promote students in rank? And if so, to what extent.
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Bulltahr
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 707
Location: NEW ZEALAND
Styles: Shotokan, Seido Juku

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ask you CI , it differs between dojos and assoc...........
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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 453
Location: United Kingdom, England, Shropshire
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As mentioned above by Bulltahr this depends entirely on association and individual Club/Dojo/Dojang/Kwoon/Gym. If they are the Chief Instructor of their own club then it should be expected they can promote and process ranks. With that said, some general rules of thumb I have encountered over the years:

1. A Blackbelt can promote up to one rank below themselves: Thus a Shodan could promote up to Ikkyu in this model.

2. A Blackbelt can promote up to the same rank as themselves: Thus a Shodan can grade a person to Shodan.

3. A Blackbelt can grade up to a certain rank based upon their respective Dan rank: Shodan can promote up to Yonkyu, Nidan to Ikkyu, Sandan to Shodan, Yondan to Nidan, Godan to Sandan and so on and so forth. Yondan and above in this model tends to be reserved to promotion by system head or a panel of seniors. Plus, the prior example of respective ranks differs from group to group - some allow Shodan to grade the whole gamut of Kyu Grades for example.

What tends to affect the model used in the system tends to be determined by local factors and what the highest rank in the system is. A lot of American Karate systems used the second model I mentioned in the early years of Karate in the United States. A number of systems use a blend of models, particularly those groups which do not have a grade above Godan.

Back to the best advice though: ask your instructor.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28559
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The suggestions that Wado Heretic laid out have been what my experience has suggested, as well. I usually see the title of instructor granted at 3rd dan ranks, but I've seen it happen at 2nd dan, as well. I rarely see school owners below 3rd dans. Talk to your instructor about this, for sure.
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SLK59
Member of the Month
Member of the Month

Joined: 05 Nov 2020
Posts: 50
Location: USA
Styles: Shotokan karate-do

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GS718Trek -

According to your profile, you have trained in Shotokan, Shorin Ryu and Judo. There is going to be a great deal of variation in grading policy within each of those styles and their various organizations, individual dojos, etc.

For example, when I trained in JKA Shotokan during the 1970s-1980s, all kyu exams were graded by the Regional Director (ranked Godan), together with the Chief Instructor of the dojo (ranked Shodan or above, depending on the location). The dojo CI had input during the exam, but the final decision was that of the Regional Director. Thus a Shodan could not award any rank on his/her own, even if he/she was a dojo CI. For dan exams, the grading panel included the Regional Director, at least one other Regional Director, the National Chief Instructor (Hidetaka Nishiyama), and often an additional high-ranking Japanese instructor.

As others have wisely said, your best course of action is for you to consult your own CI, and ask him/her about the policy for your specific group.

Cheers,
Scott
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Japan Karate Association International USA, 1974-1990, Sandan
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15162
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Shindokan, the answer is NO!!

Not without the explicit written approval from the Governing Body, the SKKA, and in our history, that's never been granted. We've a strict By-Law that dictates that only Sandan and above are authorized to petition for any Testing Cycle either in-house or at the Hombu.

Shodan and Nidan aren't permitted to authorized any promotion of any type. As a matter of fact, no one, no matter their Dan Rank, are ever permitted to promote anyone to any rank; only the SKKA can promote anyone of the Student Body.

The SKKA a very long time ago entertained to allow Shodan and Nidan the right to petition of SKKA/Hombu. The SKKA has a strict policy that requires the tenure of any Dan rank be no less than two ranks under the CI of any dojo within the SKKA Network. A Sandan can petition up to Shodan and under, however the SKKA must authorize all promotions.

Yeah, I know, sounds quite narrow minded, but it is what it is.



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The Pred
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 350

Styles: Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
In Shindokan, the answer is NO!!

Not without the explicit written approval from the Governing Body, the SKKA, and in our history, that's never been granted. We've a strict By-Law that dictates that only Sandan and above are authorized to petition for any Testing Cycle either in-house or at the Hombu.

Shodan and Nidan aren't permitted to authorized any promotion of any type. As a matter of fact, no one, no matter their Dan Rank, are ever permitted to promote anyone to any rank; only the SKKA can promote anyone of the Student Body.

The SKKA a very long time ago entertained to allow Shodan and Nidan the right to petition of SKKA/Hombu. The SKKA has a strict policy that requires the tenure of any Dan rank be no less than two ranks under the CI of any dojo within the SKKA Network. A Sandan can petition up to Shodan and under, however the SKKA must authorize all promotions.

Yeah, I know, sounds quite narrow minded, but it is what it is.




I don't think it's narrow minded, since I remember you saying you had to be a Sandan to open your own school, in your SKKA network.
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SLK59
Member of the Month
Member of the Month

Joined: 05 Nov 2020
Posts: 50
Location: USA
Styles: Shotokan karate-do

PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
In Shindokan, the answer is NO!!

Not without the explicit written approval from the Governing Body, the SKKA, and in our history, that's never been granted. We've a strict By-Law that dictates that only Sandan and above are authorized to petition for any Testing Cycle either in-house or at the Hombu.

Shodan and Nidan aren't permitted to authorized any promotion of any type. As a matter of fact, no one, no matter their Dan Rank, are ever permitted to promote anyone to any rank; only the SKKA can promote anyone of the Student Body.

The SKKA a very long time ago entertained to allow Shodan and Nidan the right to petition of SKKA/Hombu. The SKKA has a strict policy that requires the tenure of any Dan rank be no less than two ranks under the CI of any dojo within the SKKA Network. A Sandan can petition up to Shodan and under, however the SKKA must authorize all promotions.

Yeah, I know, sounds quite narrow minded, but it is what it is.




High standards, nothing to apologize for.
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1830

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything depends if one belongs to an organization or association. Most do belong to one and are or ought to be pursuing their own training. As a shodan in any martial arts, running a dojo should be left to the judgment of whoever evaluated one the grade. In short, one is allowed to do whatever their instructors say they can. Traditionally and usually when the main dojo is in Japan and Okinawa, a minimum of godan and the system/style head. There are almost no exceptions if one wishes to start a dojo. Outside of Japan, it is more common for a lower dan to operate and teach independently within their organization for Japanese/Okinawan arts.

Either way, shodan is a very low and unusual level to be teaching independently, ie: in one’s own dojo apart from doing it where one trains under the supervision of one’s own instructor.

Going against this is very much seen as an arrogant, prideful gesture and is usually seen as grounds for being removed from one’s organization. In Japanese it is called “Hamon” or disowning. This is where a chief instructor or style grandmaster decides to completely erase his connection and relationship to a dan ranked student for serious offences often related to dojo politics, face/honour or shameful and criminal behaviour of a student.

Personally I witnessed this three times in under twenty years of involvement in Okinawan karate. The first time was for embezzlement of association fees for personal gain, stealing monies owed to the organization. Second was for teaching without explicit permission.

More recently all dan grades of my small dojo were informed of the disowning of an 8th dan for heinous, unspeakable crimes against his step-daughter. I have personally never seen my instructor so angry and deeply saddened. It just proves that it is not always possible to see into a person’s true mind. And it is a reminder that one can never truly know what goes on behind their eyes. In the end, what one does with one’s training is one’s own responsibility.
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2251
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends strictly on the association and also your club. Some are very strict on this matter, as a matter of quality control.

At my club, my Chief Instructor (Godan) runs all gradings and will promote students up to 3rd Dan. But we aren't formally affiliated with any other association, so he tends to bring in other instructors of other clubs to assist when dealing with students wishing to have any Dan Promotion.

1 of our 3rd Dans are due in 2021, but not sure if he is interested in being promoted to 4th Dan any time soon.
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