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Slingblade01
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Joined: 20 May 2015
Posts: 21
Location: Atlanta, GA
Styles: Old TKD (mystery Karate) & Modern TKD

PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wado Heretic,

I do not understand your "beginner" Shuto example.

You are correct in your assessment that modern TKD relies on a great deal of rotation, not just in sonnal momtong makki but virtually everything. The Koreans no longer want a squared body in any stance.

Sonnal momtong makki is, as far as I'm aware, strictly a block and nothing more. Most techniques in TKD are now one-dimensional.

Concerning the mechanics of the block, the blocking hand chambers at the opposite waist, then sweeps up vertically just below the nose, and then down to the strike with a rotation of the hand at the very end.

bushido_man96,
You are right, the style has changed. Competition poomsae is becoming highly structured (think olymipcs). Every nuance within a form has become standardized. There is no longer any interpretation from the individual nor the school.

So, back to the matter at hand, the odd high chamber of the rear hand; I have looked through some Taekyun and Soo Bak videos without any success. So far, the ITF chamber is the closest which is odd. The KTA (pre-Kukkiwon) had no love with Choi Hong-Hi, ITF founder. And to suddenly mimic his style is too hard to swallow. I would be more inclined to believe that the Kukkiwon mimicked the same style Choi did.

Wado Heretic,
Your theory of northern Chinese systems is the best so far I just wish I could pin it down.
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Wado Heretic
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Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 388
Location: United Kingdom, England, Shropshire
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu

PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Yi1GTcCMM

When in need of Shuto Uke examples go to Shutodan, I mean Shodan. (Pun works much better when spoken.) The 14-26 is the part to look at for the Shuto Uke, but the closer comparison is side viewing Shuto Uke which is 20 seconds onward.

With that more exact description I would have to say it is either influenced by Tai Chi, Xinyi, or Bagua. If I had to make a guess about potential sources, perhaps Yoon Byung-in, as he had the most extensive Chaun fa experience that I know of.
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Montana
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007
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Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't tell you where it came from, but I can tell you it's definitely NOT from Shorin Ryu. It goes totally against all the shorin ryu principles..such as not exposing yourself while being attacked. if one of my students blocked like that, he's get an earfull from me! lol
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Wado Heretic
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Joined: 23 May 2014
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Location: United Kingdom, England, Shropshire
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The assertion is not that it is taken directly; but perhaps influenced by a particular way of preparing the shuto, and with other influences it evolved to what is seen now.
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Slingblade01
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Joined: 20 May 2015
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Location: Atlanta, GA
Styles: Old TKD (mystery Karate) & Modern TKD

PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Furthermore, as stated above, "Sonnal momtong makki is ... strictly a block and nothing more."

I posted this question in an attempt to discern to origin of the chamber of the block not the merits or the block.
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Spartacus Maximus
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Joined: 01 Jun 2014
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Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my guess as to the reason for the chambering position in the picture is that it comes from an adaptation or change made for a purpose other than practical application of the technique. None of the old Okinawan ryuha teach the shuto block that way with those angles and chambering position.

Shotokan is certainly a good comparison and probably the most plausible source. The karate that influenced Taekwondo and other Korean systems is the type that was popularized by Funakoshi, and was already radically different from what was practised in Okinawa by Funakoshi's peers.
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Slingblade01
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Joined: 20 May 2015
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Location: Atlanta, GA
Styles: Old TKD (mystery Karate) & Modern TKD

PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At this point in time, I would have to agree that is not Okinawan based. And I would go so far as to say it's not Funakoshi based either.

As Wado Heretic theorized, I am inclined to believe that it is Chaun Fa based.

While most of the TKD founders were students of Funakoshi, Toyama, and Mabuni, there is no evidence that I can find that this chamber came from karate. However, several of the TKD founders had exposure to Chaun Fa.

Also, I have found that other TKD techniques were derived from Taekyon which is heavily Chinese influenced. Example: Khaljaebi (throat strike)

Unfortunately, I have yet to find this chamber in Taekyon leading me to believe that it is Chaun Fa based.
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Spartacus Maximus
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Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well as some readers may or may not know, the term Chuan Fa is generic and does not refer to a single system but to all Chinese martial arts systems. If I had to investigate the origin of this technique, I would probably start looking at Chinese systems taught and practised in the regions bordering Korea or in Korea which the founders might have learned or observed. This may be a long shot but it could be the only clue available.
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DWx
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
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Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slingblade01 wrote:


Also, I have found that other TKD techniques were derived from Taekyon which is heavily Chinese influenced. Example: Khaljaebi (throat strike).

Whilst that is certainly something the various founders like to claim, do we have any hard evidence for this? I would say that inspiration was taken from how Taekkyon looked but is there any direct lineage?
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bushido_man96
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Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
Slingblade01 wrote:


Also, I have found that other TKD techniques were derived from Taekyon which is heavily Chinese influenced. Example: Khaljaebi (throat strike).

Whilst that is certainly something the various founders like to claim, do we have any hard evidence for this? I would say that inspiration was taken from how Taekkyon looked but is there any direct lineage?
No, there really isn't any. I'm not sure that the Taekkyon that is around today would resemble what was done in the past. I think it mostly falls under revisionist TKD history.
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