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Slingblade01
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Styles: Old TKD (mystery Karate) & Modern TKD

PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 12:07 pm    Post subject: Can you identify the ryu from which this block origianated? Reply with quote

The block referred to below is Sonnal Momtong Makki (knife-hand body block)
I believe the formal karate name is Shuto uke.

The Kukkiwon/WTF has now standardized every aspect of every block/strike/kick/thrust/etc.

Since 99% of TKD was derived from Karate, specifically Funakoshi (Ro Byung-Jick '36-'44?, Lee Won-Kuk ??- '44?, Choi Hong-Hi ??-??), Mabuni (Yoon Kwe-Byung '40?-'44?), and Toyama (Yoon Byung-In '?? - '46, YOON Kwe-Byung '44?-'48?) styles of karate, I wondering if anyone could identify the set position or chamber (Frame #2) for the block.

http://taekwondoworld.com.au/?portfolio=sonnal-makki


Last edited by Slingblade01 on Wed May 20, 2015 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DWx
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting question Slingblade01. Welcome to the forums.

Whilst I don't know the answer to your question, I will say that the start position is very similar to that used for sonkal daebi makgi in ITF Taekwondo today. So maybe the common root goes back to at least to when Choi Hong Hi, Nam Tae Hi etc. were part of the Chung Do Kwan.
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Slingblade01
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your theory would imply a Shotokan derivation; Choi Hong-Hi, Lee Nam-Tae (though Lee Won Kyuk)
Would you care to post a video link that best represents your theory?
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Wado Heretic
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect this particular variation is heterodox, although derivative from the teaching of Funakoshi it is not at all similar to what he demonstrated as a technically correct Shuto Uke in that he advocated the wrist in line with the head, and the hand sloped and palm facing to the side not outwards.

One should not forget the debt that Tae Kwon Do has to Chinese Chaun Fa as well. Many of it's pioneers were also familiar with the Chinese arts through travels in Manchuria. I have seen similar blocking methods in some Northern styles; maybe that would be a place to look.
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Slingblade01
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wado Heretic,

Thank you for your reply. I understand that a lot of style change were made near or after Funakoshi's death. Are you taking this into account? More specifically, Could Funakoshi have taught palm out in '40s?

Also, I've have thus far only found only one technique not found in Karate, the throat strike, Kal Jabi. Thank you for reminding me to look outside of Karate for others. Could you suggest a more specific technique and style within northern style Chaun Fa?
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DWx
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slingblade01 wrote:
Your theory would imply a Shotokan derivation; Choi Hong-Hi, Lee Nam-Tae (though Lee Won Kyuk)
Would you care to post a video link that best represents your theory?

Example here: https://youtu.be/Z0mH-eXklQs?t=12m25s
or here: https://youtu.be/8CzplEgtZ28?t=1m4s

ITF suggests a (loose) closed hand position to start with and the arms are a little higher but it's largely the same.

Both Kukki- and ITF- are definitely different to this https://youtu.be/Y1wuVl7awb4

Wado Heretic wrote:
One should not forget the debt that Tae Kwon Do has to Chinese Chaun Fa as well. Many of it's pioneers were also familiar with the Chinese arts through travels in Manchuria. I have seen similar blocking methods in some Northern styles; maybe that would be a place to look.

Interesting to hear there is similarity in Chuan Fa. Do you have a video? I guess the Chinese influence would have come in via Yoon Byung-in (Chang Moo Kwan) and Hwang Kee (Moo Duk Kwan).
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Slingblade01
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm clueless when looking at Chuan Fa.
Should I be looking at Tai Chi, Sheng-I and Pa-Qua, Shao Lin, Long Fist, or Southern Fist?
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Wado Heretic
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a good question as Ohtsuka Hironori (Wado-Ryu), and Yasuhiro Konishi (Shindo-Jinen-Ryu) who were early students, and assistant instructors in the 20s both went onto advocate a Shuto Uke with the palm facing more prominently outward. However, from both his early work, to his last work in which he demonstrated techniques Funakoshi appears to have favoured the palm to the side. Could be some influences lost to history due to the eastern tradition of acknowledging the senior master as the master, without regard to his de facto subordinates who though considered senior students shared teaching duties.

Most immediate comparisons would be found in XingYi Quan, in terms of similar angle, or Pigua Quan with the use of a large preparation to generate torque. Unfortunately, I am talking from something I witnessed in person, but will try and do some digging to find something.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the style of the technique, like many techniques, has changed over time due to the emphasis that has been placed on the aesthetics of forms performance, and not necessarily the practicality of the technique.

For example, while the first few examples posted by DWx show the technique in a way similar to the way our school does it (we straighten the arms all the way back, and use a big twist for power), I don't think it is necessarily as practical a way to perform the technique, especially in applications. I think a better application is more along the lines of DWx's third video, but rather with the arms crossed at the chest or head level, for blocking and seizing purposes.

The first section of this video displays a bit of what I'm talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw-wnObCc3U
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Wado Heretic
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having another thought; in some branches of Shorin-Ryu, for beginners a Shuto Uke is performed by dropping the back arm to the side, as the front hand is drawn to the shoulder, and then as the front arm sweeps out (as opposed to thrust forward) the back hand performs a scooping movement from the side to come up to point at the elbow of the front arm. The movement we are discussing could as easily be an exaggeration of that I suppose. However, I do not believe Funakoshi taught that variation, because it would be quite the mutation for that to become what we see today in Shotokan-ryu where the arms move in different directions, and the block is thrust out. Seems quite obvious now, but didn't occur to me until training this morning.

Anyway, hopefully others can see the link I am getting at with this;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0sam6ls188

If one looks at Sonnal Momtong Makki; it appears to rely to a degree on rotation, which is a different mechanic to most versions of Shuto Uke, so that is why I suspect it may be influenced by Chinese systems and specifically norhtern systems. Not exactly Bagua per se, but it uses similar dynamic motions as rotation as Bagua just as a point of comparison.

To concur with Bushido_man96; if one performs Sonnal Momtong Makki as a Go, or hard technique, like a Shuto Uke, you will break your fingers or wrist; the full rotation of the hand exposes the fragile parts of the hand. However, if you rotate your body with the technique, and use your body weight for the block, and use it as deflection, instead of an opposing force, than the palm out makes more sense; as it then allows for the immediate placement of pressure on the attacker after the deflection, and also allows a full rotation of the arm, when a side ways wrist would cause tension in the shoulder thus stopping the defence short. In other words; how it looks has definitely influenced it's performance, over it's actual application.
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