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username13768
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 30 Apr 2010
Posts: 41


PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief because not only are there billions of Chinese people that subscribe to the theory of chi but there is a system of medicine based on it that has survived for over 4000 years. I have trouble believing that that many people can be wrong for that long. Also, even though there are not that many instances of research into chi here in the West there are quite a few scientific studies that have been done in the East. There were even a couple done here carried out by Harvard researchers. Granted these case studies were all on the medicinal uses of chi. Nonetheless they happened. So there is some evidence there of an energy force in the body that can directly affect the body. Just no scientific evidence of being able to use it beyond one's own body for martial purposes.
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GeoGiant
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 29 Nov 2009
Posts: 610
Location: East Coast
Styles: Tang Soo Do

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IndoSilat wrote:
Well, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief because not only are there billions of Chinese people that subscribe to the theory of chi but there is a system of medicine based on it that has survived for over 4000 years. I have trouble believing that that many people can be wrong for that long. Also, even though there are not that many instances of research into chi here in the West there are quite a few scientific studies that have been done in the East. There were even a couple done here carried out by Harvard researchers. Granted these case studies were all on the medicinal uses of chi. Nonetheless they happened. So there is some evidence there of an energy force in the body that can directly affect the body. Just no scientific evidence of being able to use it beyond one's own body for martial purposes.


Ok, one more thing and i will quit beating this dead horse

Many people for a very long time thought the world was flat... & placebos have also produced results in a lab setting. i couldn't resist.
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dwarf2
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 30 Jul 2010
Posts: 48


PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By what i have seen this only works on there students not on people who don't believe and no one has ever proven this to work under fire, and i have been to dillmans seminars I do like his books on pressure point but in the chicago land area there is man who is called the human stun gun and he waves his hands and yell's and his student falls down . Then news people took him to a bjj place in Chicago and none of his stuff worked at all. Its to bad that there wasting there time with this ,if i were one of his students, i would have got myself lessons at the bjj place, money well spent.
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tonydee
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 253
Location: Japan
Styles: 24 yrs kong soo do, 3 yrs hapkido, bits of others

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeoGiant wrote:
I should further clarify. If you present me with a claim, lets say a perpetual motion machine. I'm not going to immediately dismiss the idea and walk away. I'm going to ask you questions about your claim. If you refuse to answer questions or you refuse to provide information, then I'm going to dismiss your claim.


At one stage in my mother's public service career, part of her job was responding to members of the public who wrote in announcing their new perpetual motion machines :-/. As a hard-core rationalist with a chemistry degree and more scientific training than the backyard tinkerers who wrote in, I'm not sure it was her favourite task.

GeoGiant wrote:
I think you have the impression that I will say no, perpetual motions machines are impossible therefore I won't listen your claim.


I think it would save you a lot of time

GeoGiant wrote:
The idea of chi was presented to me. I looked at both sides of the debate and walked away skeptical of the idea. At this point I need "something else" for me to consider so that I can reformulate my opinion.

I would follow the above criteria for any idea presented to me.


You see, the funny thing about all these hocus pocus things is that there are people out there who believe in them and who will cite various scientific experiments and objective evidence in support of their beliefs. I've read literature from tai chi schools explaining how scientific measurements have detected electro-magnetic fields around the human body that can be influenced in accordance with a practitioners perception and conscious manipulation of chi. Well, I think we all know the body uses electricity for some muscle triggering etc., so it must be able to generate some electromagnetic field. But is that scientific evidence of chi? When does "just being alive" differ from "chi"? How much stronger or more directed must that energy be before we consider there to be something important happening. If some scientist proved a tai chi grandmaster showed twice the normal electromagnetic field strength around his big toe, is that proof of the utility of chi? If said grandmaster can break 5 bricks with a flying nose strike, and on average kickboxers twice the side can only break 2, is that proof of chi, or a nose too often broken is less useful against a brick? All up, it's not only about whether science can detect any truth to all of this, it's also about significance and where to draw the line, which is why both sides already believe science supports them. The same is true for many people chasing supernatural phenomena, and certainly both atheists and religions are constantly claiming scientific validation of their claims while working out ways to dismiss the other side's claims.
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Groinstrike
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 923
Location: Richland County
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Krav Maga, Jeet Kune Do, BJJ M

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, I have great respect for George Dillman and his system. I have experienced his system through a credited instructor. This instructor is a part of our organization and i also have the upmost respect for him as well. Saying this i am EXTREMELY skepical when it comes to chi knockouts. I have been knocked stupid by series' of pressure point strikes. I just can't believe this can be done to a non willing opponent in a combatively effective way. Once again just my opinion, I will admit that i am wrong when somebody can show me first hand.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2079


PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought.
Chi is supposed to reside in blood.
High blood pressure can cause a person to pass out.
When a person passes out the body needs to lay flat to resume stable blood pressure.

I have witnessed in a martial art tournament, just before the referee said fight, a combatant fell to the floor. Nothing about chi was mentioned.

We can effect each others blood pressure. If I anger another person their blood pressure will rise.

My point is that Chi is in blood, that blood pressure control might be the answer. Animals such as puppies are known to lower peoples blood pressure, that's why having pets are so popular with us humans.

Yoga deals with controlling one's own blood pressure and heart rate, also lowering one's own need to breath at a bear minimum level. Perhaps these are other factors that need to be taken in to consideration when debating chi power validity.

Perhaps Dillman has a way to cause blood pressure rises in fellow humans that causes them to pass out, or conveying a subliminal message or feeling of that you are about to die. Supposedly we are meant to fight or flight but not to stand motionless while someone wants to knock you out; with or without fists.

People faint when hearing bad news.

Too much salt in one's diet can cause high blood pressure.

People faint when it is too hot.

People pass out from being shocked.

People faint from not eating when they should, causing low blood sugar levels.

People can pass out from over working or being overly tired.

Girls in the 1960s would faint when they saw the pop group "The Beatles" perhaps being overly exited can cause an excessive rise in blood pressure, causing unconsciousness.

Just being in an environment such as a martial art seminar can raise everyone's blood pressure; keep that pressure prolonged and it's not going to be long till someone will be ready to faint. Just consider adding some of the reason above to the none touch knockouts and things might seem a little more realistic on how it is possible.
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wildbourgman
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 152
Location: Louisiana
Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan, now that is a plausible explanation and it also explains why on the you tube clips (that made Dillman look horrible) it only works on his students. To me if it's really working on his students and they are not just taking part in a fraud, then they are brainwashed to a point where it has a real physiological affect.

Now if Dillman only gets attacked by his Students then his system will work perfectly.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2079


PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildbourgman wrote:
Alan, now that is a plausible explanation and it also explains why on the you tube clips (that made Dillman look horrible) it only works on his students. To me if it's really working on his students and they are not just taking part in a fraud, then they are brainwashed to a point where it has a real physiological affect.

Now if Dillman only gets attacked by his Students then his system will work perfectly.
Martial art CI's can train individual students to be susceptible to none touch knockouts.

Once a person is programmed a certain way to react, they will react exactly how they have been conditioned; more so under stress. Certain students are susceptible than others but with enough repetition and stress we can all fall in to the mentalists trap of reacting without common sense.

A story to illustrate the point.

Police were once taught to discharge all of their bullets on the targets during practice.

Once the gun was empty of bullets the rookie policeman would pick up all of the empty shells, as this was the standard procedure.

Then when a real shootout occurred between the policeman and the criminals, they did exactly what they were taught to do (difference being that the policemen were under stressful conditions) when their gun was empty of bullets, they would scramble around on the floor to pick up the empty shells.

I figured out long ago that MA students can be taught or conditioned to loose to their (Mentalists) teachers. I had to actually ask myself why is it that senior belts could beat me so easily.
The reason was partially because I respected them far too much and was taught how to loose to them on a twice a week bases or I could continue to believe everyone was far more superior than my self.

When I changed my mental chip amazing things happened. I started confronting the higher ranks without any fear or remorse during sparring, there was no turning back from this new found freedom of being unchained from how I was conditioned to behave, to the way I wanted to be.

BEWARE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Martial arts is equally physical and psychological)

I have had students that will not hit me with any power. It is not something that they can control consciously. Their subconscious will not allow them the freedom to do what ever they want.

This is perfectly normal, otherwise people would be doing alot of damage to themselves and others, this is why drugs and alcohol can change a person's personality to be of a destructive nature.
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wildbourgman
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 152
Location: Louisiana
Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Alan, not to give him a pass or even to pick on him but by what your saying it's possible, it's also possible that Dillman and the like might believe in what they are doing because they see it work on students. Those students are simply people afflicted with something akin to a self induced Beatle Mania (Dillman Mania). If so Dillman himself is also self afflicted rather than a fraud.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2079


PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildbourgman wrote:
Ok Alan, not to give him a pass or even to pick on him but by what your saying it's possible, it's also possible that Dillman and the like might believe in what they are doing because they see it work on students. Those students are simply people afflicted with something akin to a self induced Beatle Mania (Dillman Mania). If so Dillman himself is also self afflicted rather than a fraud.
They are all afflicted on both sides of the coin, (teacher and student) just don't become "drawn" in to it yourself.

Alot of water can pour in to the smallest gap; turn your water main to the off position; regarding none touch knockouts.

Another way of understanding this is when people go to the cinema.

The audience becomes "drawn" in to the plot, or story.

People start clapping or cheering, even crying.

Aikiido uses this "drawing" in effect in a different way, by letting the opponent hold the Aikidoist's wrist, the opponent can be gently lead (while not feeling threatened) the subconscious doesn't react and therefore the Aikidoist without much effort can throw the opponent, with most of the energy (ironically) coming from the opponent.

Wing Chun also uses this "drawing" effect, it is the (Man Sao) asking hand; because it is a searching hand used softly, once again the opponent's subconscious doesn't recognize a threat and doesn't react, giving the Wing Chun fighter sensitivity information.

Both of these examples from Aikido and Wing Chun are used in a very subtle light touch, the light or none touch knockouts are connected by the simple fact of not being part of mainstream reasoning.

Because something dosn't seem possible, with enough "drawing" in seduction, the participants can subconsciously contribute to it's success with disastrous results or consequence.
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