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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 1863


PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Chief vc Subordinate Reply with quote

Chief vs subordinate can have its issue, especially when knowledge, skill, talent, age and experience seem more or less equal.

Also when there is a big difference between age and experience, there still are issues that can arise due to certain attributes such as:

Loyalty
Duty
Perseverance
Dependability
Strength of character
Friendliness
Selflessness
Reliability
Hard working
Trustworthiness
Discretion
Devoted
Supportive
Obedient
Compliancy
Respectfulness

As assistant resentment due to playing second role can interfere with working together in harmony.

Personally I've worn many hats as a chief, partner and subordinate, in and outside of the dojo, how well do you play your part?

Also, what have you learned and discovered by the roles of chief and or subordinate, that you have been in?
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6000
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it not a more modern thing to have an issue with seniority? At least "respect your elders" and respect of people in authority like police officers used to be something everyone just did.

(This will make me sound old now) but it seems to me the younger generation do not grow up with a sense of respect for their seniors, both in age and experience. I see this all the time with kids coming into the dojang but also even in the workplace. Younger people speaking out of turn and not doing as they're told despite what they might think.

As Martial Artists the senpai / kohai dynamic should be familiar to us, as should the automatic respect for those that have gone before.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1192
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm from an older generation so this was never an issue. Like DWx stated we were brought up to respect our elders. Inside the Dojo the same applies in that we respected those with more experience and years of study. Of course back then they also demanded that respect, if you know what I mean.

With today's generation this is not taught and parents are the primary reason along with the new PC way of raising children. I won't get on a soap box of what I think the problems are specifically because it will border on a political rant. I'll suffice it to say that if a student comes to me for instruction I'll accept no less than the respect I deserve and the respect I give my students. If they do not show respect I show them the door. No arguments, no second chances. Gone!
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Charles R. Swindoll
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 13594
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I've been in the MA for quite some time, and I've extremely climbed up the ladder from being a goofy-two-left-footed-all-thumbs-couldn't-open-the door-properly-if-his-life-depended-on-it-couldn't-fight-his-way-out-of-a-paper-sack if his life depended on it, to the current Kaicho of the SKKA/Hombu with a membership of a quite substantial size over a 53 year MA journey.

I've been a CI far much longer that any other positional type, in and out of my own dojo; ever since 1977. I too, am from an older generation, and what you're speaking about was never an issue.

Being a taskmaster on and off the floor has served me quite well. No, I'm not a cruel taskmaster, but a taskmaster, nonetheless. I'm swift to work your tail off and swift to level out some discipline and swift to hug; as my wife is fond of saying..."He's nothing but a big teddy bear!!"

Both in my dojo and at the Hombu, I'm not anybodies fool, and my standards are high, and my tolerance is limited, but I've learned over the many years that you can get more with honey, than with vinegar.

Respect begets respect, both in and out of my dojo; EARN IT!! The student came to the dojo...the dojo didn't come to the student. One of the main responsibilities for any CI is to retain the Student Body. To me, that's the easiest thing because, well, I know for good grief that I'm one heck of a CI, and not to bad of a human being.

Give a student an inch, they'll take a mile...but I'm very selfish...I don't give an inch...not a millimeter...nothing...EARN IT!!




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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1192
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Respect begets respect, both in and out of my dojo; EARN IT!! The student came to the dojo...the dojo didn't come to the student. One of the main responsibilities for any CI is to retain the Student Body. To me, that's the easiest thing because, well, I know for good grief that I'm one heck of a CI, and not to bad of a human being.

Give a student an inch, they'll take a mile...but I'm very selfish...I don't give an inch...not a millimeter...nothing...EARN IT!!


I agree with you Sensei8 but there is a difference in that I do not concern myself with retaining students. If a student is serious and understands the value of my teaching them the art I don't need to worry about retention. Serious students will understand that respect is given to them and therefore must be given in return. I treat everyone, not just students, with the utmost respect until they prove they do not deserve it. If this happens my retention is the last thing I am concerned about.

My personal philosophy is that I have taken on the responsibility of passing on my art to worthy students that will in turn carry it on for future generations. This to me is more important than any one single student with an attitude.

Like you I demand 100% and yes, I guess I could be called a taskmaster or sometimes worse. However those that I feel are worthy of my art I also feel are part of my family and as such I treat them with the respect deserving of a family member. I am harder on myself than I am on my students and I have always believed that the best way is to lead by example. As such it is difficult for my students to say I am unfair or overly demanding as they see what I demand of myself.

To that point, I extend my respect the moment they walk through the door. If it is not returned, as I said before, I have no issue in showing them the door. As far as I am concerned you are either a worthy student or you're not a student. If your mouth engages without the benefit of good common sense and good manners, believe me, I have no issue loosing a new student. I would rather concentrate my time on those that are serious about training and have invested years into training rather than try to teach a punk. Maybe in my younger years I would have had that type of patience but no longer.

This may make me a bad business owner (but then again I do not do this for a living so...) but the students I train don't feel I am a bad CI.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 13594
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
there is a difference in that I do not concern myself with retaining students

Don't misunderstand me...I do not concern myself with retaining students myself!! Students come and students go, and nothing I do will change that. For those students that do remain, that is the result of my being a CI of a quality.

You and I are two peas in a pod in many things!! We see eye to eye on a wide plethora of issues, but oftentimes, you say it so much better than me; I believe is that our backgrounds are quite similar, and we're from the old school generation.

Proud to know you...proud to call you friend!!




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Last edited by sensei8 on Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 613
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
Is it not a more modern thing to have an issue with seniority? At least "respect your elders" and respect of people in authority like police officers used to be something everyone just did.

(This will make me sound old now) but it seems to me the younger generation do not grow up with a sense of respect for their seniors, both in age and experience. I see this all the time with kids coming into the dojang but also even in the workplace. Younger people speaking out of turn and not doing as they're told despite what they might think.

As Martial Artists the senpai / kohai dynamic should be familiar to us, as should the automatic respect for those that have gone before.


I don't think I am older than you, but I have also noticed the same attitude changes. I blame the parents.

Even though my daughter and I are in the same karate class, she knows not to appeal to me if she is in trouble with Sensei. She has had to do punishment push-ups and scolded. She knows she is accountable for her own behavior.
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"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching

"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1192
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LLLEARNER wrote:
DWx wrote:
Is it not a more modern thing to have an issue with seniority? At least "respect your elders" and respect of people in authority like police officers used to be something everyone just did.

(This will make me sound old now) but it seems to me the younger generation do not grow up with a sense of respect for their seniors, both in age and experience. I see this all the time with kids coming into the dojang but also even in the workplace. Younger people speaking out of turn and not doing as they're told despite what they might think.

As Martial Artists the senpai / kohai dynamic should be familiar to us, as should the automatic respect for those that have gone before.


I don't think I am older than you, but I have also noticed the same attitude changes. I blame the parents.

Even though my daughter and I are in the same karate class, she knows not to appeal to me if she is in trouble with Sensei. She has had to do punishment push-ups and scolded. She knows she is accountable for her own behavior.


This is how it should be.

Too many parents want to be friends. The problem with that is you want your children to like you and because of this you tend to steer away from teaching them to be responsible and to live with the consequences of their actions.

My father loved me but if I did something wrong I was taught a lesson I wouldn't soon forget. He did not come running to the rescue and take my side. He'd talk to the adult before getting my side and if he felt I was in the wrong I had to pay the price.

These days parents run to the rescue as if their child could do no wrong. They talk them up and put them on pedestals. They learn nothing from this and when they get out into the real world they find out that all they really are is polished turds. Others do not hold them in the same high regard that their parents do. They learn very hard lessons.

To me parents should not allow others to be parents to their children. They should take this responsibility themselves.

I hear about parents demanding this or that from friends that teach because their precious little demon demands it.

For me (I don't teach kids so I won't have this problem... ever) I would show the student and the parent the door and may show them how to accelerate their departure from said door if you know what I mean. I have no patience for disrespect or those without an ounce of humility.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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