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Revario
White Belt
Joined: 27 Feb 2023
Posts: 10
Location: Ottawa Canada
Styles: Karate
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 Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2023 5:03 pm Post subject: Chito Ryu Kata/ Niseishi and Sochin |
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Wondering if anyone would know of a specific reason as per why various Chito Ryu Kata have name similar to those in other styles yet it is nothing alike?
By the same occasion would anyone know of any other style who practice a version of Niseishi or Sochin like Chito Ryu does, even if the form in that style has a different name or similar in the general form?
Thank you for the information
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2242
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2023 7:24 am Post subject: |
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I can't speak exactly for Chito Ryu, but I can offer some theories based off my research and own experience.
My guess is that these kata have a similar root, and diverged based on the needs of the practitioner. I practice a fairly standard looking Seisan, but I've seen versions of Seisan that, if I hadn't been told that it was Seisan, I never would have guessed it was Seisan. It was explained to me that they had a similar root, but diverged as it was developed by different people.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30001
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Zaine wrote: |
I can't speak exactly for Chito Ryu, but I can offer some theories based off my research and own experience.
My guess is that these kata have a similar root, and diverged based on the needs of the practitioner. I practice a fairly standard looking Seisan, but I've seen versions of Seisan that, if I hadn't been told that it was Seisan, I never would have guessed it was Seisan. It was explained to me that they had a similar root, but diverged as it was developed by different people. |
Apparently, this practice was the norm in the early days of Okinawan Karate training. It makes sense, as well, as everyone's body is different, and everyone has different abilities. Also of note is that we tend to change how we do things as we age. Knees and backs get old and creaky; I don't jump around as much as I used to. Physical limitations tend to cause us to change how we do things.
When Martial Arts worked into the mainstream, and organizations started being created, the need to systematize and codify things became the norm, and hence we have a lot of practitioners that now learn something a particular way, and are fearful of changing it due to maintaining "tradition," when in fact, traditionally, things would change for someone over time.
Granted, time and experience are necessary to determine whether a change is necessary or not.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2242
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2023 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| When Martial Arts worked into the mainstream, and organizations started being created, the need to systematize and codify things became the norm, and hence we have a lot of practitioners that now learn something a particular way, and are fearful of changing it due to maintaining "tradition," when in fact, traditionally, things would change for someone over time. |
You make a good point here, Brian. I find that I am much more interested in how someone approaches karate and kata than how it was traditionally done. I am learning from someone, not from some metaphysical concept.
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Revario
White Belt
Joined: 27 Feb 2023
Posts: 10
Location: Ottawa Canada
Styles: Karate
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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I can 100% understand and get behind such a statement. However it is also true that how one teaches tend to relate to how they were taught themselves. And so on and so forth. Of course each individual will add their own flavour to it but the main principles tend to remain the same.
As a very extreme exemple, we can all understand that Kyokushin people usually train in a different method than Shotokan same for Goju Ryu. Each seem to have their methods and traditions based on 1 person that saw things and wished to do it differently. Their approach to Karate and training does vary greatly.
I think it it is also the case on a smaller level with other styles and traditional methods as well. And by traditional I always refer to pre 1950's Karate.
Thank you
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2242
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2023 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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I think that there is definite use in understanding and being able to interact with the "traditional" way that a kata is done. It allows the martial artist to then make their own assumptions and changes where necessary. As a teacher, I teach the traditional way of doing a kata but, in my own practice, do it differently to fit my body and encourage my students to do the same.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30001
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2023 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Zaine wrote: |
| I think that there is definite use in understanding and being able to interact with the "traditional" way that a kata is done. It allows the martial artist to then make their own assumptions and changes where necessary. As a teacher, I teach the traditional way of doing a kata but, in my own practice, do it differently to fit my body and encourage my students to do the same. |
I think this is a great way to approach kata training in general, but I always add a caveat to it. I wouldn't necessarily encourage students to change things right away; any kind of changes should only be made if and when necessary (and reluctantly), after an extensive amount of study into the how's and why's of it's original intent. Change for the sake of change benefits nothing. A change made due to the physical limitations of aging, an accident, or even in relation to body style and physical capabilities, can benefit the practitioner, and also provide others with an option to explore should they see the need to based on similar circumstances.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16246
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2023 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Zaine wrote: |
| I think that there is definite use in understanding and being able to interact with the "traditional" way that a kata is done. It allows the martial artist to then make their own assumptions and changes where necessary. As a teacher, I teach the traditional way of doing a kata but, in my own practice, do it differently to fit my body and encourage my students to do the same. |
I think this is a great way to approach kata training in general, but I always add a caveat to it. I wouldn't necessarily encourage students to change things right away; any kind of changes should only be made if and when necessary (and reluctantly), after an extensive amount of study into the how's and why's of it's original intent. Change for the sake of change benefits nothing. A change made due to the physical limitations of aging, an accident, or even in relation to body style and physical capabilities, can benefit the practitioner, and also provide others with an option to explore should they see the need to based on similar circumstances. |
Soid posts!!
If the change has been deemed effective by those who have made said changes to said Kata, then the question remains. Is said change effective? If the change is proven to be so but the practitioner isn't effective, and this is vital, than the practitioner is at fault, and not the change.
One has to make it effective. and this takes a deal of maturity in technique.
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Drew
Orange Belt
Joined: 28 Sep 2011
Posts: 188
Location: My other body
Styles: Boxing, Muay Thai, Sub Wrestling, Tai Chi, MMA, Medieval, Extreme Reaction Combat Scenarios (This is not a drill) Judo, formerly Mishima Style Karate
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Chito Ryu Kata/ Niseishi and Sochin |
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| Revario wrote: |
Wondering if anyone would know of a specific reason as per why various Chito Ryu Kata have name similar to those in other styles yet it is nothing alike?
By the same occasion would anyone know of any other style who practice a version of Niseishi or Sochin like Chito Ryu does, even if the form in that style has a different name or similar in the general form?
Thank you for the information |
Chito and Dorito Ryu masters had a dramatic falling out around the same time of the Great Corn Shortage. This is when the Taki Ninja Group took control of Japan and is the foundation of modern Japanese oral law.
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on the post.
