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fenwick1999
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Joined: 24 Apr 2002
Posts: 5


PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2002 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am an evangelical Christian and also a follower of the Bruce Lee arts.Clearly,Lee did not teach his students to beat him,and much of his "private" art came from unique applications of wing chun and taiji boxing principles.So one must go back to wc and taiji in order to recreate Bruce's actual mechanics,as opposed to what he taught.Strong side lead,boxing emphasis,and bi-jong footwork are good stuff,but can't explain Lee's awesome power or his uncanny ability to "read" opponents.Lee believed in chi and auras.My concern about qigong practice and so forth is,from a Christian view,how far can one go in practicing qigong,etc., w/o getting into witchcraft or tapping into the demoniac?Clearly,Yang was demon-possessed,and so were Hatsumi, O'sensei Uyeshiba and Gogen Yamaguchi.Others have such remarkable abilities that demonic power is the only explanation.Lee himself was most likely tormented by" ancestral" demons,and as a monist who did not accept Christ,he had no way of fighting them.I guess I want to know,from the view of Christian internal practitioers,how can one pusue ch'i and other subtle energy aspects(kong jing,etc.) and keep oneself safe from Satanic powers?Is qi just a matter of physics,or is it spiritual?Is it dangerous in an occultic way?

[Edited by Admin: No need for caps.]

[ This Message was edited by: Patrick on 2002-04-26 09:36 ]
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tessone
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Joined: 23 Apr 2002
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Location: Galesburg, IL

PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2002 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone who is also a Christian, I'd suggest you first look at the art you practice and reflect on what your religious beliefs really are.

Most importantly, does your study of martial arts and your use of chi/ki affect your belief or your identity as a Christian? I'd tend to say not. If it is affecting things (say, skipping out on church to spend more time in the dojang), think about whether that's really inherent in the art, or whether it's your own human weakness ("I should go to church, but I really want to perfect this technique.").

I see nothing at all to suggest that martial arts is incompatible with the Christian faith. Does Scripture suggest that any seemingly ab-, para-, or supernormal phenomenon is demonic? Certainly not. So even if ki is something not entirely explainable by physics, that doesn't mean qigong is witchcraft.

What makes you believe the people you cited were possessed by demons?

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fenwick1999
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Joined: 24 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply.Yamaguchi used to channel his ki into crystal balls,and he could literally read his opponents' minds.Hatsumi has telepathic powers as well, but not to the extent of Yamaguchi.Uyeshiba could cause it to rain with his kiai!(not even Bruce could do that).Yang(the founder) could legitimately kill tigers.(bruce couldn't do that either.)Many old qigong and yoga masters could levitate,altho' no one is doing it today.How?As far as Bruce is concerned,fiction from DRAGON THE BRUCE LEE STORY aside,he was tormented by an oppressive sense of fate due to the "unlucky" circumstances of his birth.My theory is that his family was tormented by a spirit of oppression,and they tried to deal with it by Feng Shui and other superstitions,instead of bring in a Catholic priest or a baptist pastor.Lee was too "Eastern" in his thinking to take Christianity as a live possibility for himself,although he trained with ordained clerics like Leo Fong and James Yimm Lee.
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tessone
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Joined: 23 Apr 2002
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Location: Galesburg, IL

PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Russian writer Nikolai Gogol also felt he was tormented by fate and he was Russian Orthodox. It happens to the best of us.

At any rate, whatever the particulars of Lee's life or the other masters of the internal arts, I don't see anything in them to suggest that they're spiritually unhealthy for a Christian. I'd still suggest looking very carefully at Scripture and seeing what it says to you.

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YODA
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Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 1033
Location: England (int'north west)

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Yamaguchi used to channel his ki into crystal balls,and he could literally read his opponents' minds.Hatsumi has telepathic powers as well, but not to the extent of Yamaguchi.Uyeshiba could cause it to rain with his kiai!(not even Bruce could do that).Yang(the founder) could legitimately kill tigers.(bruce couldn't do that either.)Many old qigong and yoga masters could levitate,altho' no one is doing it today.l




Pleeeeese tell me this is a joke!



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Buddhas flower
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Joined: 15 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2002 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


To Fenwick,

You are correct in having concerns about your martial practice and how it ties into your christian faith as well. As the other gentleman stated, look carefully through biblical text and scripture and most of all, pray about it. Make sure that your focus is where it needs to be. Being a christian myself, I too wrestle with such issues as these and I too practie qigong meditation on a regular basis. Yet at the same time, what is my focus for all of this martial practice and refinement, is it for my own glory, or for His glory? Meditate on scripture and you will know that path that you are to take. If needs be, fast and pray about it.
Now concerning the issues of Yang and Hatsumi, I can't speak to defend Yang in this case, but I do have a close friend who studies under the school of Hatsumi and from what I can gather, I don't truly feel that Hatsumi is demon-possesed. I do feel the Sensei Hatsumi has developed some very specialized and specific skills that not all of us have ever cultivated, but that is not to say that he is demon possessed. I thought I just had to mention that.
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fenwick1999
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Joined: 24 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your replies.No,I am not joking,altho' I wish I were.I must say that I was once a scientific sceptic myself,and as cynical as anyone, as regards anything to do with chi,yoga,demons,or the supernatural.However,I actually came in contact with persons who had experience with real exorcisms.For instance,an Anglican priest I know is from Africa,and he has witnessed "voodoo" rituals in which unbelieveable things take place.Levitation,dematerialization like Star Trek, and people becoming animals.Likewise,too many credible people attribute preternatural abilities to Yang and other past masters for it to be all written off as superstition or "tall tales".Yes,it may be just a story that Yang could kill tigers with kong jing,or it may be true.If it is true,then how was it done? That is the issue.I don't believe that Hatsumi is a bad person;in fact he seems like a humble and likeable guy.I just question the source of his telepathic power.He may believe it is merely aura-sensitivity,but he may be wrong.The story about Uyeshiba causing it to rain is well-known,and attributed to too many reliable people for it to be mass hysteria.It is either an extremely well- orchestrated hoax,or it happened.If it did happen,how?
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SaiFightsMS
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Joined: 28 Oct 2001
Posts: 6397
Location: Ohio
Styles: Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, Shi-to Ryu

PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2002 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is an old history of mysticism in the Judeo-Christian history. You might find a bit of research into the Christian histoy helpful. Levitating monks and nuns also occur in Christian history.
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Billy Jack
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Joined: 18 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2002 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fenwick1999,

You claim in your post the Sensei Uyeshiba was demon possessed. I'm curious, what basis do you have for this claim?
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Buddhas flower
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Joined: 15 Apr 2002
Posts: 9


PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2002 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Concerning the issue of Yang, you do have to realize that chinese history has shrouded the character of Yang so much that there are supposed accounts of him living 500 years or more. Whether this is true or not, I wouldn't worry too much about it, unless your like seriously lossing sleep over it.
As far as the explination of the abilities of Yang and Hatsumei, I honestly can't tell you how they do it. One could subject these type of individuals to a scientific study under strict labratory conditions, but I'm afraid that such experiments would prove nothing as far as explination.
I mean, Hatsumi even states 'The secret principle to Taijutsu is to know the foundations and path of peace' or something like that. I can get you an exact quote at home. He teaches that Ninpo and Budo Taijutsu is to cultivate a persevering heart and immovable spirit. Now would a demon have a heart, or try to teach the way of peace? I don't think so. Why would the principles and teaching be there to cultivate the understanding and benevolent heart? Why would they be there to learn to protect your family and loved ones? Why would it express the personal self, to relax and train hard in times of peace, then when there is a threat, to come together as a family and defend one other? Why is it that some believe that to polish your martial art is to walk the path of the saint?
Please understand, I'm not attacking you or your point of view concerning these individuals that you question, its good that you do question such things. It shows that your thinking on your own as opposed to just accepting thing blindly. But at the same time, also think about the questions above as well.
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