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DeeLovesKarate
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Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 174
Location: USA
Styles: Shotokan, EFK, Brazillian Jujitsu, and Tae-bo

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2002 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

three60roundhouse wrote:
DeeLovesKarate wrote:

I don't agree with the bible on these things.

There's a lot more than that with which to disagree. Don't get me started.

DeeLovesKarate wrote:

attempt 360 spinning roundhouses off the living room table


It's hard to do it from the table to the couch, believe me I've tried (and failed )

I think God is a little fickle. I mean, in the Old Testament we have total chaos, we have God encouraging extra-marital relations and everyone fighting everyone and people sacrificing their children and killing lions in their dreams, but then in the New Testament we are supposed to believe that God has always wanted us to be kind and gentle beings, turning the other cheek, being faithful and commiting no sin. What is the definition of sin?


THANK YOU!!! I've been waiting for someone to notice that for a long time. If you think about it, he contradicts himself all the time. For example, "Noah's ark":
In this story, god is saddened by the fact that his world, through his own fault, has turned into a world of sinners, and choses a completely random guy to build a big old boat. Okay, now he says, take two of each animal , one male and one female, and bring them on the boat with your family. So this totally random guy gets to be saved with his family, while the whole world dies. DIES.
He doesn't teach them right from wrong, or bless his sinners, turn the other cheek, he kills them all except some dude and his family. Isn't that contradictory to when he died to PROTECT sinners?? Why is he telling us now that it is wrong to kill your enemy, or those who sin against you, when he did just that?? And now M.A., a form of protecting yourself against those sinners, is bad?
Why?? I'm not blaming anyone, or trying to offend anyone, I just want to understand. Anyone who reads the bible,or much less understands it, can probobly help me. PLEASe,PLEASE, PLEASE HELP ME!!!
Grrr,
Dee
P.S. This is not a diss against any religion. It is me, questioning the most sold piece of literature on earth, and trying to find someone who understands it. Thank you.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

at Dee. I wasn't quite sure if you would get my response. If i get a chance today, i'll reply about Noah.


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three60roundhouse
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO, Noah was a pretty messed up dude. Besides the whole thing about his being the only "good man" on Earth, which is so confusing to me I won't even try to get into it, there is what happened when Noah got back. So now he has to kind of "re-make" the world on his own. Great. He plants himself a vineyard, drinks a lot of wine, and falls down drunk (not to mention the fact that he is naked. The Bible never explains how this came to be). Besides the fact that this doesn't help anyone out, there is the part of the story in which he gets really ticked at his son for finding him. Now, one might think that the dude was mad because someone had seen him naked. I could undersatand that, except for the fact that God never intended us to be embarassed naked, and if Noah was this awesome guy everyone should follow, it shouldnt be a big deal, right? This is all somewhere in Genesis 9, hang on while I find it! aH, HERE IT IS:

Quote:
Noah's Drunkenness
18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.

19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.

20 And Noah began to be a husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

21 and he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

25 And he said,
Cursed be Canaan;
a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.


26 And he said,
Blessed be the LORD God of Shem;
and Canaan shall be his servant.


27 God shall enlarge Japheth,
and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem;
and Canaan shall be his servant.


28 And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.

29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

What exactly had Ham "done unto Noah"? Is this the beginning of homosexuality, or is Noah just a really private guy in a paranoid way. He also had a mean temper! What a jerk! I mean, he's mad at Ham, so he curses Ham's son? What the heck!?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dee..here's one of thousands of commentaries on Noah available online. Though they're mostly similar i grabbed this one because it answers a few of your questions and may clear up a few misconceptions that you may have. If your interested in learning Gods Word consider picking up a study Bible - most have good study notes and easy to understand commentaries. There are many christian message boards similar to this one in format that you could ask any and all questions you may have - i'm sure you could even start your own martial arts threads if you chose. They are friendly places not only to study Gods word but just to sit around and chat about whatever if you choose.

http://www.bethelcog.org/MOFNoah.htm


Here's a link to a great and very busy message board i post on now and again.

http://www.christianforums.com/
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Radok
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't get me started on a debate. [Edited by Admin: If this discussion is going to have ANY life, it is important that it stays clear of flames!]WHO THE HELL!! anyway, culture was very different back then. Just because something seems wrong now it could have been completely normal back then. If someone wore all white to a funeral, it could seem very bad to us, but that's what the do in China!
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Last edited by Radok on Wed Aug 28, 2002 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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monkeygirl
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why can He do all that stuff? 'Cuz He's God.... 'nuff said.

About the nudity...I don't think Noah was embarassed at his own nudity. I think Ham was the embarassed one. Noah was mad at Ham for being embarassed at his nudity, because they're not supposed to be embarassed about it. Since they were the only people left on the Earth, they could have started over again without the whole "nude embarassment" crap. However, Ham ruined it for everyone and now the only people that can be naked are babies and people in nudist colonies.
Ham's punishment: His son becomes a servant to his uncles. Harsh, but hey...
And Noah was the MOST decent of the people on Earth at that time...remember, they were all a bunch of really stupid people that needed to die, they were so bad. That doesn't mean Noah was perfect, he was just the best...it's like picking the best fruit from a rotten tree.

And it's OK for God to kill people, because He owns their lives to begin with. Because of the eternal life of the soul, He's really just bringing them Home. He judges them and sends 'em to Hell or brings 'em up to Heaven. However, we can't kill people (unless for justice: when someone receives the death sentence from man, he is sent to God to be TRULY judged), because it isn't our life to take. OUR lives aren't ours to take. They are gifts from God that we are put in charge of, just like all other posessions.

Remember, the Great Flood was mankind's lesson...NEVER BE LIKE THAT AGAIN!!!! And the rainbow was our promise and reminder that a Flood like that will never happen again. So Jesus' sacrifice was because humans aren't perfect. We aren't meant to be. When we sin, Jesus' death lets us carry on, repent, and not have to kill any lambs or crap. The people BEFORE the Flood weren't educated (and weren't going to be perceptive to any teaching from God. They were evil beyond ANY kind of evil we know today...you think we're bad? Nothing when compared to them), and God wasn't going to sacrifice His only Son for THEM...He'd take care of them personally. He educated them with the Flood, and was obviously pleased with the outcome, if He'd Sacrifice His only Son. (Whew, hitting the Shift key a lot)

I believe that because our lives are Gifts from God, being a Martial Artist is A-OK!! We must protect our lives like there's no tomorrow, because they are a precious, precious gift from God. We can't let anyone take that away from us. Remember, the 6th Commandment says "Thou shalt not kill", not "Thou shalt not beat thy agressors up in self-defense".

God had man fight Holy Wars (although there is some Protestant speculation that the Catholic church was behind this). I think this was to allow Him to take care of the evil people who hated Him. I mean, God could take care of them with a snap of His Fingers (so to speak), but what kind of world would we have if everything were solveable just by asking God "Hey, can you snap your fingers again and make everything perfect?". We would have meaningless lives if we didn't take care of things ourselves. The meaning of our lives is to glorify God (remember, He's a jealous God...He has no problem admitting that!), but it has to be of our own free will. What would be the point of having mindless drones worship you?


Anyway, that's my opinion...sorry if it's kinda long. I'm not exactly Biblically educated, but this is me using my common sense and basic beliefs.

Just a note: I don't pretend to know what He's thinking, these are just my opinions and why I think it happened.
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Last edited by monkeygirl on Fri Aug 23, 2002 7:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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three60roundhouse
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although I go to a Catholic high school, I am the first to admit I am the ultimate Bible skeptic. Call me a cynic, but I just think of myself as a realist. I don't buy that Noah was mad at Ham for being embarassed of his father. Noah was a descendant of Adam and Eve, no? And so then Noah would have been raised clothed. So I think it's safe to assume that Noah would have lived life covered up. If Noah was a "new beginning" of mankind, then the Bible wouldn't have had to mention that Noah was naked? Do you get where I am going? Also, if Ham was so embarassed, why was it Noah's other sons that covered him? Why would they cover him if their father paraded around buck naked all the time? Wouldn't he have taught them that not being clothed was ok? I confuse myself sometimes with these inquiries, but anyone who "gets me" and has some insight, PLEASE REPLY!
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've looked at those verses and online for commentaries that i thought would help explain them. In very short it's something like this: Ham wasn't embarrassed at his Fathers nakedness rather he was sharing his joy or amusement at the situation with his brothers. In Levitcus 18:6 it
says-

The nakedness of your father or the nakedness of your
mother you shall not uncover. She is your mother; you shall
not uncover her nakedness.

The heart of the scripture for Noah in those verses i believe is Honoring your Mother and Father ( one of the ten commandments ). While Ham took delight in his Fathers sin his other brothers felt differently.

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three60roundhouse
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No where does it say that Ham took "delight" in anything. He didn't uncover anything, either.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

three60roundhouse wrote:
No where does it say that Ham took "delight" in anything. He didn't uncover anything, either.



Your correct 360 - That's a summation of most of the commentaries i read. If your curious there's lots of stuff available online regarding those verses and scripture that they " may " point to.
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