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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27759
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mal103 wrote:

There shouldn't be a tick-sheet in every Dojo to say that you have to meet all criteria, also with the far reaching roots of Karate is it essential to bow? Have Karate-ka always bowed? Did Bohidharma bow?


Who's to say there shouldn't be a tick sheet for a dojo? If I run a dojo, with my rules set up, then you have to follow them. That's whats great about it being mine. If eveyone in the dojo bows, why should I let one person out of it? Regardless of how I feel about bowing itself, if its part of the dojo etiquette, then it is what it is. The great thing about this is that if you don't like it, they you don't have to attend. Why does an individual have a right to come in and attempt to make changes?

JusticeZero wrote:
If people are having an issue with bowing because of the religious content, is it OK to refuse to shake hands because of the religious content of that act? No specific prohibition against it, just trying to keep the rampant Christianity away? That seems like the analogue to me. Shaking hands is just as religious in nature as bowing is.


Agreed. I don't think bowing is religious. Its cultural. Two different things. Whether it has a place in the dojo or not anymore is a different thread discussion altogether.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14404
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
mal103 wrote:

There shouldn't be a tick-sheet in every Dojo to say that you have to meet all criteria, also with the far reaching roots of Karate is it essential to bow? Have Karate-ka always bowed? Did Bohidharma bow?


Who's to say there shouldn't be a tick sheet for a dojo? If I run a dojo, with my rules set up, then you have to follow them. That's whats great about it being mine. If eveyone in the dojo bows, why should I let one person out of it? Regardless of how I feel about bowing itself, if its part of the dojo etiquette, then it is what it is. The great thing about this is that if you don't like it, they you don't have to attend. Why does an individual have a right to come in and attempt to make changes?

JusticeZero wrote:
If people are having an issue with bowing because of the religious content, is it OK to refuse to shake hands because of the religious content of that act? No specific prohibition against it, just trying to keep the rampant Christianity away? That seems like the analogue to me. Shaking hands is just as religious in nature as bowing is.


Agreed. I don't think bowing is religious. Its cultural. Two different things. Whether it has a place in the dojo or not anymore is a different thread discussion altogether.

Solid post!!


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yamesu
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 1391
Location: Oceania <-> Asia
Styles: Kyokushin. MT. Arnis. Judo. JediMantre.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
mal103 wrote:

There shouldn't be a tick-sheet in every Dojo to say that you have to meet all criteria, also with the far reaching roots of Karate is it essential to bow? Have Karate-ka always bowed? Did Bohidharma bow?


Who's to say there shouldn't be a tick sheet for a dojo? If I run a dojo, with my rules set up, then you have to follow them. That's whats great about it being mine. If eveyone in the dojo bows, why should I let one person out of it? Regardless of how I feel about bowing itself, if its part of the dojo etiquette, then it is what it is. The great thing about this is that if you don't like it, they you don't have to attend. Why does an individual have a right to come in and attempt to make changes?

JusticeZero wrote:
If people are having an issue with bowing because of the religious content, is it OK to refuse to shake hands because of the religious content of that act? No specific prohibition against it, just trying to keep the rampant Christianity away? That seems like the analogue to me. Shaking hands is just as religious in nature as bowing is.


Agreed. I don't think bowing is religious. Its cultural. Two different things. Whether it has a place in the dojo or not anymore is a different thread discussion altogether.


My sentiment exactly.
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CredoTe
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 776
Location: Ohio, USA
Styles: Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), Hung Gar (Hung Siu Lum)

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Christian values / way of life go hand-in-hand with my Karate journey. I can't for the life of me imagine the two separated... If life were the roads, forest, mountains, terrain, etc I was traveling on or through, my Christianity would be a roadmap or gps with Christ as the voice saying "turn left here, turn right there, NO! don't turn that way". My Karate would be the vehicle I was driving to follow Christ's directions.

But, I also don't use my authority in my dojo beat my students with a Bible. It goes back to the respect thing...

A few points I'd like to hit on:

kchenault wrote:
Ki/Chi/Qi, depending on how you use the term, could go either way, in my understanding. If you mean we all have a spirit, then no, it is not against a Christian believing this. If you mean a force that ties and binds us all together that we can bend to our own will, then I personally would consider that a no-no for a true believer of Christ.


The key phrase here is "bend to our own will"; because, IMHO, there is a force that ties us all together, and that is the Holy Spirit (ie God / Jesus)!

kchenault wrote:
Christ was perfect. He had to be in order for Himself to be the perfect sacrifice to pay for mankind's sin. Some Catholics believe Mary to be co-redemptrix, or co-savior. Not true. While being blessed among women, she didnt save anyone from sin or redeem them.


I would say the vast majority of practicing Catholics would disagree with your assessment that they believe Mary to be a co-savior. The Church firmly teaches that the veneration / admiration of Mary is because she is the Mother of God / Jesus; that worshiping her as a savior / god / goddess is blasphemous. Essentially, veneration of Mary is not equal to worshiping her. I say "practicing Catholics" for a reason. There are plenty of people out there that claim to be Catholic or were raised Catholic that do not practice their faith and do not understand Catholicism.

I agree with you: God / Jesus saves, not Mary

To bring the discussion back to the article's points:

bushido_man96 wrote:

mal103 wrote:
There shouldn't be a tick-sheet in every Dojo to say that you have to meet all criteria, also with the far reaching roots of Karate is it essential to bow? Have Karate-ka always bowed? Did Bohidharma bow?


Who's to say there shouldn't be a tick sheet for a dojo? If I run a dojo, with my rules set up, then you have to follow them. That's whats great about it being mine. If eveyone in the dojo bows, why should I let one person out of it? Regardless of how I feel about bowing itself, if its part of the dojo etiquette, then it is what it is. The great thing about this is that if you don't like it, they you don't have to attend. Why does an individual have a right to come in and attempt to make changes?

JusticeZero wrote:
If people are having an issue with bowing because of the religious content, is it OK to refuse to shake hands because of the religious content of that act? No specific prohibition against it, just trying to keep the rampant Christianity away? That seems like the analogue to me. Shaking hands is just as religious in nature as bowing is.


Agreed. I don't think bowing is religious. Its cultural. Two different things. Whether it has a place in the dojo or not anymore is a different thread discussion altogether.


Great posts mal103, JusticeZero, and bushido_man96, great points, as well. Bowing and handshaking are cultural, and like things that are cultural, they usually have roots in the "trust but verify" mentality. Westerners (European / Near East), in order to ensure they weren't going to get stabbed in the old days, would grasp each others' wrists in greeting to check for weapons. It became a handshake later in more "civilized" settings like royal courts or whatever. Easterners (Middle East and the Orient beyond), would keep a certain distance and bow to each other to basically ensure the same thing. If someone had a weapon and wanted to attack, they would have to cover a bit of distance to get to them.... which is why people in positions of authority in the East made those lower in station than them to bow lower (exposing their back, too), and never allowed them within certain distances (hello Forbidden City...)

The religious aspects of bowing are related to the cultural reasons, but not necessarily the same. In addition to a respectful, cultural greeting, bowing can be seen as showing a certain reverence for the spirit / soul within someone else. In Eastern religions (someone here with more knowledge of Buddhism, Hindusim, etc can clarify this), they bow for certain spiritual aspects in addition to showing respect or deference or humility. In Christendom, look at monastic Christians (monks) that bow to each other in reverence for the Holy Spirit contained within each person. Original / Eucharistic Christians (Catholics, Orthodox Church, etc) bow / genuflect to the Consecrated Body & Blood of Christ (not to an empty host or to a cross or crucifix or statue as often misconceived by those who don't understand Catholicism / Orthodoxy).

OK, my 2 cents are cast; I'll be quiet now...
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CredoTe
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 776
Location: Ohio, USA
Styles: Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), Hung Gar (Hung Siu Lum)

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
I don't think that religion gets in the way of anything because, imho, 'man' gets in the way.

QUESTION:

How does one NOT bow at the dojo when it's an accepted part of the styles culture?



Great post Quick and to the point of training in dojo!
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can bow to you without any ambiguity, but I don't and will not worship you. This is what I believe that Christ is commanding us to not do; worship others, and not Him!! Besides, His omniscience doesn't permit Him to get all bent out of shape because we're bowing to our fellow MAist.

Imho.


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CredoTe
Red Belt
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Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 776
Location: Ohio, USA
Styles: Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), Hung Gar (Hung Siu Lum)

PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
I can bow to you without any ambiguity, but I don't and will not worship you. This is what I believe that Christ is commanding us to not do; worship others, and not Him!! Besides, His omniscience doesn't permit Him to get all bent out of shape because we're bowing to our fellow MAist.

Imho.



Exactly God / Jesus knows what's in your / our heart. That's one reason why He reduced the Ten Commandments to Two:

1.) Love God / Jesus before anyone or anything else

2.) Love your neighbor as yourself
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14404
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CredoTe wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
I can bow to you without any ambiguity, but I don't and will not worship you. This is what I believe that Christ is commanding us to not do; worship others, and not Him!! Besides, His omniscience doesn't permit Him to get all bent out of shape because we're bowing to our fellow MAist.

Imho.



Exactly God / Jesus knows what's in your / our heart. That's one reason why He reduced the Ten Commandments to Two:

1.) Love God / Jesus before anyone or anything else

2.) Love your neighbor as yourself

To the above bold type...

YES!!



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alexis101
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Joined: 14 Jan 2014
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Location: Mansfield, Qld

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like this thought:
"Christians shouldn’t be afraid of learning a martial art. However, they should be very cautious about what form of martial art they learn. "

Right. As written in the Scriptures, "A fool accepts anything, but a wise man is careful in his ways."

Indeed, we have to be watchful of our choices and not just recklessly believe nor accept anything. Let us allow God to guide us to the right decisions.


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kensei
Orange Belt
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Joined: 05 Oct 2012
Posts: 235
Location: Canada
Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very very late to this show but here is my two cents worth as a 40 year old man that has been in martial arts since 6 years of age, has a Jewish Step mother a Muslim best friend and grew up Christian only to move more towards science as a teen and now basically says no one knows for sure and we have to pull our collective brains out of our faith to review some reality once and a while.

My personal belief system has NO PLACE IN THE DOJO! period!!! I would assume we have a mixed faith dojo, I never ask what building someone goes to to worship, or if they do! its none of my concern as long as they dont prostolitize (sp?) in the dojo and they follow the house rules I am fine.

Recently we had here in Canada a Muslim student create a situation in New Brunswich in an Aikido school. His faith apparently made it neccessary for him NOT to train with a lady at all ever and this new student came into an existing club and forced the club to now be split by gender. They cried Human Rights and forgot that Gender should trump religion as you are born with your gender and religion is your choice.

Then the Muslim gent begain giving out what I would see as somewhat offensive leaflets to the students to suggest that others convert to his religion. the text that was presented in the media was offensive and suggested a man give his wife/Daughter a smack if they were to wear clothing that was colorful or modern!...no it actually said that!

I truely dont think that God, Ala or whom ever you pray to would be upset if you were to train with a lady to defend herself! Personally as an instructor of 20 years if a student came to me and said they wont bow, wont train with ladies and wanted to put out religious leaflets in my dojo I would quickly show them the door and respectfully suggest they not come back till they respect the house rules.

So, what are the house rules?.....
1. I dont care if you are Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Pagan, Buddhist, Shinto (if thats what you say) or any other religion...or no religion, in my dojo you bow to the front, we show respect by bowing and you train with any of your dojo friends.

2. So you found God through Islam, converted to be Jewish, Found Christ (never knew he was lost...maybe I should help in the hunt) or what ever you select as your lifes path...leave it at the door and dont bring it into the club! We respect others thoughts, beliefe systems and or lack of those in my club and NEVER will I let religious leaflets in my club...especially those that are offensive.

3.In the dojo NO POLITICS. we had a local liberal MLA in our club once and he trained for years and the only rule I had for him and the other clubs is that he is Jerry in the club...not the MLA that you want to beef at and he Sure as shooting was not to politic on MY TIME>

4. I am king and master of the dojo, my instructor is the emperor...aside from that NO ONE Makes rules or tells us what to do in my club! I dont take orders from any priest, Iman or any other such person, its a place for training in martial arts and No one will dictate how we do it other than my instructor and me.

5. if you ever wonder if you can do something from outside and bring it inside the dojo...like hand out books, bibles,leafelets or try to get people to come to a evening service or some other religious event....See the other rules fool!

Politics, Sex, Drugs, Personal belief systems and other topics that can bring about "discussion" will bring about teh end of a good dojo or bring a cancer into a good one faster than you can pray it does not happen (see what I did their).

I respect all religious belief systems and not religious belief systems...just dont bring them in my club.
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