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Spartacus Maximus
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Joined: 01 Jun 2014
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Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:00 pm    Post subject: Complicated lineage question Reply with quote

Is it possible for a style association/organisation to have more than one representative for the same country? Most Okinawan styles have the main dojo in Okinawa with branch dojo everywhere else headed by designated regional/country representatives.

There are a couple cases where there are more than one main dojo within the same style organization. For example one in Okinawa and another on mainland Japan and others in North America and Europe. This is because the founder designated more than one successor. Each of the four hold a ninth or tenth dan and each run their own HQ but they all belong to the same association/organisation.

Now here is the question: could a direct student of the Europe HQ chief open a branch in the USA and teach there? The student’s ninth or tenth dan sensei and the head of the US Hombu are both direct students and successors of the founder.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it possible for a style association/organisation to have more than one representative for the same country?

Yes.

The USA could have regional/zone representatives IF necessary. By dividing the USA into 3 regions/zones, there would be 3 USA Main Dojo's, yet they all answer to the main dojo. It's not an idea situation, however, it could benefit both the Student Body as well as the Governing Body, wherever that might be.

However, that situation wouldn't have ever worked for the SKKA, the Governing Body that I was once part of its Hierarchy, as a Regent and then its Kaicho, forever and a day, mainly because the SKKA network only stretched out into 1 western state, California.

Quote:
Most Okinawan styles have the main dojo in Okinawa with branch dojo everywhere else headed by designated regional/country representatives.

There are a couple cases where there are more than one main dojo within the same style organization. For example one in Okinawa and another on mainland Japan and others in North America and Europe. This is because the founder designated more than one successor. Each of the four hold a ninth or tenth dan and each run their own HQ but they all belong to the same association/organisation.

Key word here is 'Most'. The most simplistic solution is to have just one main dojo/Hombu, and not spreading out authorities all over the place; confusion sets in, and any confusion only separates the necessary continuity throughout the entire network; Student Body need one main dojo/Hombu.

Quote:
Now here is the question: could a direct student of the Europe HQ chief open a branch in the USA and teach there? The student’s ninth or tenth dan sensei and the head of the US Hombu are both direct students and successors of the founder.

Yes, again.

No matter how many 'main dojo's' there are, there must be only ONE MAIN DOJO, the Hombu, that's where the buck stops, and only there. There should only be ONE SUCCESSOR, I guarantee that any style of the MA has only ONE, no matter how the lineage tree looks like on paper, and in anyone else's mind.

The old idiom says..."Too many cooks spoil the broth/stew/soup." Too many people trying to control, influence, or work on something, with the quality of the final product suffering as a result.



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Spartacus Maximus
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Joined: 01 Jun 2014
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Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without asking each of them directly, it isn’t certain what kind of relationship each of the ´main dojo’ have, if any. The seem to recognize each other but neither is specifically stated as subordinate to the other. For example, the US main dojo is not a branch “shibu dojo” of the Okinawa Honbu. Perhaps the founder wanted it that way.

Obviously each of the chiefs did not reach their grade at the same time and are not the same age. They are at least aware of each other since they all participate in events related to the style and association held in Okinawa. One such gathering was the anniversary of the founder’s death.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't think that they'd be subordinate to the other. Independent from one another, yet subordinate to the Main and Central Hombu, and in such a manner that none of them liking one another, barely tolerant of one another.

We experienced that within the SKKA. As a Hombu, the SKKA refused to interfere in any dojo within its own network, however, the Hombu was Arbitrator within its own dojo network.

Most assuredly each CI within the SKKA network knew about each other, especially when they were required to attend the Hombu's Annual Testing Cycle due to the large amount of Testing Cycle Candidates in attendance to fulfill the many managerial and supervisor posts. Not all, yet a few Senior Dan CI earned their ranks/titles at the same time. All Testing Cycles Candidates Godan and up were required to test at the Hombu, in which, that was another way that they were fully aware of one another.

They might not like one another for whatever reason, but they knew one another, and they were all subordinate to the SKKA/Hombu whether they liked it or not.



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Spartacus Maximus
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Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They seem to be separate entities with their own network of branch dojo. By looking at those that have an online presence, including the Okinawa Hombu, each of the ninth/tenth dans do not individually answer to it. Each has their own nextwork of branch dojo throughout their country; yet they have all been students of the founder and all remain with the same style organization.

The scheme is as such:

ABC-ryu XYZ-Kan Okinawa Honbu and its branch dojo
Tokyo XYZ-Kan and with branches in several countries
ABC-ryu Beikoku(North America) XYZ-Kan with branches in US and Canada
XYZ-Kan France, XYZ-Kan Germany

There is nothing that clearly states any regional monopoly or jurisdiction or territories. Strictly from an ethical point of view and assuming the ideal relationships between all of these, would it be problematic for a student to open a branch dojo under his sensei in a country/area where the style and organization already has a presence?
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kudan and Judan ranks MUST answer to the Main Hombu, wherever that Main Dojo has already been established. If not, then they have their own Governing Body, and have expelled themselves or have been expelled by the Main Hombu. Too many chefs ruin the soup...in this regard, too many Kudan an Judan, and ideal would've limited the Kudan and Judan, whereas, Hachidan and Nanadan presiding over regions, but even then, limiting those Senior Dan ranks as well...providing there's only ONE MAIN HOMBU WORLDWIDE!!

Dojo's within a network are suppose to be separate entities from one another UNLESS one CI has more than one dojo. Other than that, separation between dojo's of the same network should be that; the Hombu and any main dojo in any region DO NOT OWN SAID DOJO, and have no authority as far as how said dojo is operated.

We, SKKA/Hombu, only had authority over any said dojo in our network whenever it came to who can and who can't test. Outside of that, we steered clear of dojo politics because we didn't own any dojo within our network with the exception of the SKKA/Hombu.

No person and/or organization can prevent anyone from opening a dojo wherever they want. There might be some tangible rules/regulations within said organization in this regards, and there might be protocols from dojo's within same network, i.e., dojo's need to be no less than 25 miles from one another, and 50 miles from the regional main dojo of said organization.

Even then, a student can open a dojo wherever they want to, and there's nothing that can be done about it...legally. Of course, every Governing Body are administrated differently.

Imho!!



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