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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14987
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:30 am    Post subject: Controlled Engagement(s) Reply with quote

I am no more impressed with a UFC champion and/or the like in a controlled engagement than I am with a 10th Dan over a 10th Kyu in a controlled situation. Why? Anything, especially when the MA is concerned, will have the perceptive preponderance of unbridled and unabridged effectiveness within the scope of a controlled engagement(s).

Imho, the only thing(s) beneficial about any controlled engagement is when, (1) Teaching/learning/refining a new/old technique(s), and/or, (2) Any competition venue that's governed by rules, regulations and the like.

Mastering controlled engagement(s) isn't indicative that any said style and/or practitioner of the MA possess effectiveness across the board. Not even close, imho.

For a practitioner or a style of the MA to be effective in the arena of the uncontrolled engagement(s) it/one must excel in the various restrictive/resisting drills.

The MMA/UFC and the like are the closest thing to a real fight, and these venues do an excellent job across the board; I commend them. Kyokushin practitioners do an excellent job as well through their knock-down style of karate especially in their 40/50/100 man kumite's.

Shindokan religiously teaches restrictive/resisting drills from day one; compliant training is extremely limited because when outside of the protective dojo/school, nothings compliant about any attacker bounded by their type of body violence unleashed upon their victim.

Therefore, Shindokan teaches controlled engagement(s) ONLY in teaching/learning/refining a new/old technique(s) to our students. After that, and under the very watchful eye of their sensei, what is/was taught
is now tested by NOT being complaint to what is being used/tried.

Step 1 and step 2 and step 3, so on and so forth, no longer exist because the parameters change faster than the winds. In an uncontrolled engagement, step 1 might not even stand a chance of effectiveness, let alone steps beyond step 1, and that's because when you try this and that, I'm going to resist you at every turn.

This is when Shindokanists LEARN the nuts and bolts about every technique that we teach. It's not because we said so, no! It's because you tasted it and saw that it was good because it was untainted with controlled engagements.

Outside of any controlled engagement(s) will test ones mettle to its core.

Your thoughts please.


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ninjanurse
KF VIP

Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 6154
Location: Upstate NY
Styles: TKD;Shotokan;JuJitsu;Tai Ji

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: Controlled Engagement(s) Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:


nothings compliant about any attacker bounded by their type of body violence unleashed upon their victim.



This statement is at the core of what should be the focus of any school claiming to teach "self-defense". There are no rules on the street-and students must be prepared for this through drills that develop adrenalin bathed responses to threats and attacks with "non-compliant" partners. The closer you can get the better off you will be when it comes down to it but knowing where the line is in the dojo takes diligence on the part of the instructor.


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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28210
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great topic, Bob. I do agree with you. I think when learning self-defense, its important to have some levels of learning to go through, working up to non-compliance drills and scenario training where things change in a heartbeat. Alas, my school does none of this, but I work on different ideas in my head, and will find some willing partners eventually.
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, I think if I had had the opportunity to study with you, I might have stuck with Karate.

But one question regarding your non-compliance drills, to what degree does the training you have received in your respective style effect the type of resistance that you give.

For example: Someone training in a non-compliant manner with experience in, say Kyokushin, will resist in a completely different manner and with vastly different body mechanics than someone who was a football player in high-school and gets in to a drunken brawl about once a month.
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
You know, I think if I had had the opportunity to study with you, I might have stuck with Karate.

But one question regarding your non-compliance drills, to what degree does the training you have received in your respective style effect the type of resistance that you give.

For example: Someone training in a non-compliant manner with experience in, say Kyokushin, will resist in a completely different manner and with vastly different body mechanics than someone who was a football player in high-school and gets in to a drunken brawl about once a month.
This has been sitting idle for about a month, but I really am interested in an answer to the question I posted here so I am re-posting it with the hope that it doesn't get lost in the mix.
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MasterPain
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could be a lot. That's why training with other styles is important. Gotta add to the style genepool or it'll be inbred.
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barrypardue
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 25 Mar 2013
Posts: 102
Location: Mississippi
Styles: Shotokan Karate, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great Topic, I agree
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