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LLLEARNER
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 453
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am neither Dan graded nor in the position of making rules for visitors.

My 2 cents anyway...

I would have no problem putting on a white belt when visiting another dojo. I would probably offer, as I am there to learn, not show off my ranking.

Even being a yellow belt, I would offer.
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MatsuShinshii
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 716
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan 1979 to Present, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LLLEARNER wrote:
I am neither Dan graded nor in the position of making rules for visitors.

My 2 cents anyway...

I would have no problem putting on a white belt when visiting another dojo. I would probably offer, as I am there to learn, not show off my ranking.

Even being a yellow belt, I would offer.


And THAT is the proper response! When joining another art/school/club/organization, the instructor will decide where you fit in. To wear your previous rank is presumptuous at best, down right disrespectful at worst.

If you have never taken the art, have not graded in the art, and have little knowledge of the art why would anyone assume that because they are a certain rank in one art it automatically transfers t the new art.

The respectful thing, the humble thing to do is exactly what you just said. Leave your black belt at the house and enter as what you are, a beginner.

Walking in to someone else's Dojo and into a different art wearing your BB is nothing short of stroking your own ego. I say get over yourself and start as anyone else would, as a white belt. If you are skilled and have knowledge you will climb the hill to Yudansha faster than your fellow Deshi anyway. The instructor knows what you were in your previous art. You don't have to flaunt it.
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MatsuShinshii
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 716
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan 1979 to Present, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tallgeese wrote:
Visitors should get to wear their rank.

I have no problem with this. Once they "switch styles" then they need to go to a rank appropriate to their skill in that art. This could be white belt (no previous relevant experience- such as a striking to grappling art) or a kyu rank (a proficient striker who largely does business the same but does not know specific kata, etc.)

It's entirely possible the second ranks in higher. It depends on the focus of the school. Even at that, BB requires some degree indoctrination into the system and shouldn't just be handed over.


I agree. The instructor decides what grade to give and places them where its appropriate based on knowledge and skill.
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Kusotare
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 562

Styles: Traditional Japanese Karate, Koryu Bujutsu (Jujutsu, Iaido and Kenjutsu)

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We allow visitors to wear their black belt (or whatever belt they are in their system).

We have the following process for students who formally want to join our group.

1. They may wear their existing belt for up to 6 months.

2. After 6 months they are expected to grade - for whatever rank they feel they are capable of taking.

3. If they are successful they are awarded the belt - or whatever belt the examiners deem more appropriate.

It seems to work well.

K.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 26933
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
tallgeese wrote:
Visitors should get to wear their rank.

I have no problem with this. Once they "switch styles" then they need to go to a rank appropriate to their skill in that art. This could be white belt (no previous relevant experience- such as a striking to grappling art) or a kyu rank (a proficient striker who largely does business the same but does not know specific kata, etc.)

It's entirely possible the second ranks in higher. It depends on the focus of the school. Even at that, BB requires some degree indoctrination into the system and shouldn't just be handed over.


I agree. The instructor decides what grade to give and places them where its appropriate based on knowledge and skill.


I agree here as well. As an instructor, I would extend this courtesy to a guest at my school, and expect my students to show the proper respect, and for the visitor to reciprocate that respect to my students.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 26933
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kusotare wrote:
We allow visitors to wear their black belt (or whatever belt they are in their system).

We have the following process for students who formally want to join our group.

1. They may wear their existing belt for up to 6 months.

2. After 6 months they are expected to grade - for whatever rank they feel they are capable of taking.

3. If they are successful they are awarded the belt - or whatever belt the examiners deem more appropriate.

It seems to work well.

K.


This is a nice system, and it truly puts the burden on the newcomer to get to where he or she thinks they should be.
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tallgeese
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6682
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Kusotare wrote:
We allow visitors to wear their black belt (or whatever belt they are in their system).

We have the following process for students who formally want to join our group.

1. They may wear their existing belt for up to 6 months.

2. After 6 months they are expected to grade - for whatever rank they feel they are capable of taking.

3. If they are successful they are awarded the belt - or whatever belt the examiners deem more appropriate.

It seems to work well.

K.


This is a nice system, and it truly puts the burden on the newcomer to get to where he or she thinks they should be.


I agree. This seems to be a really well defined, functional method of grading people in.
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MatsuShinshii
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 716
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan 1979 to Present, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kusotare wrote:
We allow visitors to wear their black belt (or whatever belt they are in their system).

We have the following process for students who formally want to join our group.

1. They may wear their existing belt for up to 6 months.

2. After 6 months they are expected to grade - for whatever rank they feel they are capable of taking.

3. If they are successful they are awarded the belt - or whatever belt the examiners deem more appropriate.

It seems to work well.

K.


I guess this is so they can be afforded the opportunity to train/learn as much as they can about the new art in hopes that they can maintain their current grading?

The reason I ask this is, having the understanding that Japanese Karate translated to some Okinawan Karate (non-modernized) will have different movements, body mechanics, ways of striking, ways of receiving and ways of kicking not to mention the throws, joint locks, etc. etc.

I wonder how many can, even knowing the same Kata (albeit with some differences), relate and adapt in 6 months not to mention learn all grades up to their present. I take it if they are graded as a Nidan in their other art you would put them with the Shodan, Nidan and Sandan students instead of starting them with the basics of the art? I can not see them maintaining present grade any other way. If they started from Hachikyu (or whatever Mudansha grade you start at) I think it impossible to progress this fast in 6 months unless they are taking private one on one lessons, as the other students will not be on a fast track and this would do nothing short of making things difficult for many to help one.

How practical is this in making sure they understand the foundational techniques, movements and the like, learning differences in Kata, learning new Kata and the nuances of your art within a 6 month window?

I get the general idea I just don't know how practical it is and how much slips through the cracks trying to maintain their present grading. Personally I see no reason to allow a student (not a visitor) to wear a belt they received in a different art unless the arts are very similar and study the exact same Kata with no differences or very little differences.

The point is if you have never studied the art you should start as others do, a white belt. Learn the art and don't let a grading from another art and your ego cloud the learning process of the new art. Empty the cup so to speak.

However I think this is probably the best explanation of how to afford a student wishing to maintain present grade the ability or at least a fair shake at the ability to maintain said grade I have heard of thus far. I guess it all still comes down to the instructor and where they feel they need to be, whether that is maintaining, degrading or advancement.

I would think after a week the instructor would already know where they fit into the grading but I'm thinking the 6 months is affording every opportunity to the student.

I find no fault in your methods but find major fault with the student that allows themselves to think that gradings transfer. Too much EGO.
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Lupin1
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 1520
Location: NH USA
Styles: Isshinryu

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an Isshinryu Shodan visiting a Uechi Ryu school for the summer and wearing a white belt-- I like wearing the white belt. Even though the styles are similar, they're different enough that I feel like a white belt. And it lets me train without feeling the pressure to "prove" myself and my rank. I can just relax, learn, and have fun.
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Kusotare
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 562

Styles: Traditional Japanese Karate, Koryu Bujutsu (Jujutsu, Iaido and Kenjutsu)

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
I guess this is so they can be afforded the opportunity to train/learn as much as they can about the new art in hopes that they can maintain their current grading?

The reason I ask this is, having the understanding that Japanese Karate translated to some Okinawan Karate (non-modernized) will have different movements, body mechanics, ways of striking, ways of receiving and ways of kicking not to mention the throws, joint locks, etc. etc.

I wonder how many can, even knowing the same Kata (albeit with some differences), relate and adapt in 6 months not to mention learn all grades up to their present. I take it if they are graded as a Nidan in their other art you would put them with the Shodan, Nidan and Sandan students instead of starting them with the basics of the art? I can not see them maintaining present grade any other way. If they started from Hachikyu (or whatever Mudansha grade you start at) I think it impossible to progress this fast in 6 months unless they are taking private one on one lessons, as the other students will not be on a fast track and this would do nothing short of making things difficult for many to help one.

How practical is this in making sure they understand the foundational techniques, movements and the like, learning differences in Kata, learning new Kata and the nuances of your art within a 6 month window?

I get the general idea I just don't know how practical it is and how much slips through the cracks trying to maintain their present grading. Personally I see no reason to allow a student (not a visitor) to wear a belt they received in a different art unless the arts are very similar and study the exact same Kata with no differences or very little differences.

The point is if you have never studied the art you should start as others do, a white belt. Learn the art and don't let a grading from another art and your ego cloud the learning process of the new art. Empty the cup so to speak.

However I think this is probably the best explanation of how to afford a student wishing to maintain present grade the ability or at least a fair shake at the ability to maintain said grade I have heard of thus far. I guess it all still comes down to the instructor and where they feel they need to be, whether that is maintaining, degrading or advancement.

I would think after a week the instructor would already know where they fit into the grading but I'm thinking the 6 months is affording every opportunity to the student.

I find no fault in your methods but find major fault with the student that allows themselves to think that gradings transfer. Too much EGO.


The above process is typically applied for students who want to join our Wado-ryu group from another Wado-ryu group.

We have however also applied it to folk who have come from Shotokan groups, however I agree with you, it is not applicable for someone who has come from say a Judo background.

The 6th month period is not really to teach folk a new 'system' but rather the nuances of our particular group.

K.
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