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YoungMan
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 258
Location: Somewhere in Michigan
Styles: Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan, some Aikido

PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you marie curie. Hopefully, after 24 years in Tae Kwon Do I've a few things!
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JWLuiza
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 196

Styles: Tang Soo Do and Jujitsu

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karate is no different/better than any other sport/hobby. If you want to do it at a superficial level and be social, that's what someone will find. If someone wants to be overly involved and buy into it hook line and sinker, they will.

The truth of life is, people like other people and get into relationships. Especially with those they spend time around. The more time you spend training, the more likely you are to find your significant other in the martial arts world. Disallowing relationships is bad business in this case, because people will date and you will loose the students if you "prohibit" in-school dating. I came up in a large organization where several couples have met and married. The only behavior that I would even consider listening to an instructor about would be in class behavior. Outside of class, there is no relationship unless it is a friendship.
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YoungMan
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 258
Location: Somewhere in Michigan
Styles: Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan, some Aikido

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incorrect. There are schools that exist on a superficial level where students consider it a social event and students meet to hang out because practice and concentration are secondary. They are called McDojangs. Real Tae Kwon Do and martial arts requires a much higher level of concentration and professionalism for two reasons:
1. We don't want accidents to occur. Accidents are much more likely if students consider class a social occasion because their concentration is not where it should be. Remember, you are turning your body into a weapon and that demands high focus.
2. We don't want schools to devolve into the type I mentioned previously

Dating and relationships in class brings with it a whole set of politics that can disrupt the class and bring everyone down, particularly when things go bad. I'd rather lose one student who didn't like the policy than three or half a class because of the ripple effect of dating in-class.
I've seen too many examples of this to believe otherwise.
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6118
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High school isn't meant to be a social place, its a place for learning yet the majority of my friends are people who I have met through school. Its the same with any training environment. Inevitably you will form some sort of relationship with the people you see each and every week, who cares if those relationships turn into dating? As long as its kept out of the class then personally I see no problem in it at all. The social side of the martial arts should be encouraged, after all, humans are social creatures, so why stop nature?

IMO forming relationships in class also encourages students to go away and practice together outside of the dojo context. Personally, I'd be more comfortable training in my back yard with a friend/boyfriend than someone who was really just an acquaintance. Also, if the dojo is seen as a sociable place then more people will want to join and existing students will want to share their study of the MAs with their own friends by bringing them to class.

Martial Arts have changed through time and so have training conditions. A lot of people don't want to train under conditions akin to that of severe military training, they actually want to have fun while doing it and they want to meet people. If MAs are to keep up with other recreational activities by brining in new students then they will have to allow for the social side of it too otherwise they start to disappear from mainstream culture. The world is so career orientated now and people have less time for finding relationships, stuff like MA classes are an excuse to bring people together...
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JWLuiza
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 196

Styles: Tang Soo Do and Jujitsu

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YoungMan wrote:
Incorrect. There are schools that exist on a superficial level where students consider it a social event and students meet to hang out because practice and concentration are secondary. They are called McDojangs.

I'm saying people find what they want, if they want McDojang, they'll find it, if they want traditional MA, they will find that.

What I'm really getting at is that people will tend to train with people they like. The more time spent training, the more likely students are to find significant others during their hobbies. In fact, I would imagine (for adult) relationships that meeting at a shared interest lead to a better relationship than meeting at a bar or being set up. You can't in reality ban attraction or dating. As their instructor you have a say in in-class behavior and can say "No-dating", but it will still happen. As a competent instructor, I'd nip any in-class behavior problems as soon as I see them rear their heads, but open communication and building a community will lead to better training.

Quote:
Real Tae Kwon Do and martial arts requires a much higher level of concentration and professionalism for two reasons:
1. We don't want accidents to occur. Accidents are much more likely if students consider class a social occasion because their concentration is not where it should be. Remember, you are turning your body into a weapon and that demands high focus.
2. We don't want schools to devolve into the type I mentioned previously


I'm not saying they should be considered social occasions as their primary concern, but I spent a good deal of my teens/college years socializing after class with friends (AND girls!) from my training.

You can be serious about your MA training and not have the need to play dress-up military man style karate.
Dating and relationships in class brings with it a whole set of politics that can disrupt the class and bring everyone down, particularly when things go bad. I'd rather lose one student who didn't like the policy than three or half a class because of the ripple effect of dating in-class.
I've seen too many examples of this to believe otherwise.[/quote]
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YoungMan
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 258
Location: Somewhere in Michigan
Styles: Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan, some Aikido

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lest you think I am being inflexible, I was told black belt to black belt is okay, but then it is a relationship between equals.
An Instructor's job is to set down accepted limits for student behavior. That includes stating in the beginning that dating between students (meaning students who met in class, not dating when they signed up) is discouraged because it is not good for the class stability. Not prohibited, but discouraged. After all, there are worse things that can happen. And students who serially date students, especially black belts, will be dealt with accordingly.
If you want a McDojang atmosphere where socializing is the norm, then more power to you. If you want a serious class where practicing martial arts actually means something, I truly feel this is the way it must be.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27636
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think a social atmosphere necessarily leads to a McDojo. Neither does it mean it leads to dating. Some people just have different styles.
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JWLuiza
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 196

Styles: Tang Soo Do and Jujitsu

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YoungMan wrote:
Lest you think I am being inflexible, I was told black belt to black belt is okay, but then it is a relationship between equals.
An Instructor's job is to set down accepted limits for student behavior. That includes stating in the beginning that dating between students (meaning students who met in class, not dating when they signed up) is discouraged because it is not good for the class stability. Not prohibited, but discouraged. After all, there are worse things that can happen. And students who serially date students, especially black belts, will be dealt with accordingly.
If you want a McDojang atmosphere where socializing is the norm, then more power to you. If you want a serious class where practicing martial arts actually means something, I truly feel this is the way it must be.

Well, that's a more moderate position. And probably more important for schools that aren't structured like mine is. I understand your concerns why it would be a problem, but I also agree with bushidoman, that a social atmosphere does not equal a McDojo... I also don't mean social DURING the training, but before and after.

So yeah.

I don't know why I argued so much against you... I sure as heck didn't find any datable girls in any of the karate classes I went to.... sadly.
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marie curie
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1023
Location: PA, USA
Styles: Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan Karate, Kajukenbo, Kodokan Judo, Gracie Barra Jiu-Jitsu, Olympic Tae Kwon Doe

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YoungMan wrote:
Incorrect. There are schools that exist on a superficial level where students consider it a social event and students meet to hang out because practice and concentration are secondary. They are called McDojangs.


Incorrect. Schools which encourage their students to spend time outside of the dojo together aren't McDojos. McDogos are places that promote people quickly and usually charge a lot of money for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDojo

Note: Shaolin monks, samari, etc. lived together, ate together did everything together.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_Monastery
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Sensei Rick
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 310
Location: Phoenix, Az.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too have been whacked in the head, by an ex at the dojo. I will NEVER date a student or a parent in my life....again.

that being said, the dojo where I train at now, has created many many successful relatinships. almost everyone who is married there, that got married after they joined the dojo, got married to someone at the dojo. it's the strangest thing i've ever seen. I don't dare flirt with anyone, because there husband is inevitably a black belt. That, and my wife would kill me if I flirt with other women. I'm kinda bummed too, there are soooo many cuties there!!!!
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