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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2279
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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 Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Oh yeah! I remember now! I didn't watch 2 as many times as the first but he was the guy in Okinawa!
_________________
Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Zaine wrote: |
| Oh yeah! I remember now! I didn't watch 2 as many times as the first but he was the guy in Okinawa! |
Yep, that's the guy; Sato's nephew. The one that refused to help during the major storm, and Sato disowned him.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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tatsujin
Orange Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 162
Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Zaine wrote: |
| CK is Cobra Kai. Not sure who Chozen is as I haven't watched the show but Dan is the main character from the movies. |
Ah! Thank you sir! That helps. I would not, personally, rely on a fictional TV show to impart any sort of historical fact. However, if it does spur personal interest, research and learning...then I guess that it has served its purpose.
I think in answering this question, you really have to understand the situation at the time. Many folks have posted good snippets along those lines.
It is important to understand that prior to about 1900, there really were not martial arts "schools" (dojo - 道場). Or styles, or ranks...or any of the things that we would normally think of along those lines. You were merely a "student of so-and-so". 1900 is used a general line of demarcation because it is around this time that "karate" was being pushed into the school system in order to popularize the art and make it more "mainstream" to not only the educational system, but on mainland Japan as well. Funakoshi Gichin was one of the main proponents of this (under Itosu Anko) even said the following:
“Hoping to see Karate included in the physical education taught in our public schools, I revised the kata to make them as simple as possible. Times change, the world changes, and obviously the martial arts must change too. The Karate that high school students practice today is not the same Karate that was practiced even as recently as ten years ago, and it is a long way indeed from the Karate I learned when I was a child in Okinawa.”
Not only does Funakoshi state clearly that he changed the martial arts that were currently being taught as compared to about 10 years ago, but there is a clear implication (that I think may folks often overlook) there as an even earlier change in the martial arts from what he (Funakoshi) learned as a child...or further back in history.
Consider also the quote from Mabuni Kenwa:
"As up to now [1938] karate has only partly been introduced in Tōkyō, people who exercise karate in Tōkyō believe that it solely consists of atemi (punching) and kicking techniques. When talking about gyaku-waza and nage-waza they assume that these only exist in jūjutsu and jūdō. This way of thinking is exceedingly counterproductive with respect to karate itself and can only possibly be attributed to a lack of knowledge. In any case, with respect to the propagation of karate-dō it is exceedingly disappointing that only a small part of the entirety of karate had been introduced in Tōkyō. To those who have the future of karate-dō in mind I recommend to under no circumstances narrow-mindedly hold on to the “nutshell” of a style and a school, but rather to synthetically explore karate as a whole.
We can see that even in 1938 (with just a couple of decades of real exposure in Japan), "karate" had changed such that it was thought of and primarily taught as a punching and kicking art only. Thus loosing a large part of the whole of the original art and being a changed art from what it originally started as.
So, can we say that there are "secrets" that were not being taught at this time? Sure. Look at the pre-1900 situation. No real formal classes or schools that were open to the public...with only a small handful of students being taught at a time. So, technically, a level of secrecy there. Then, as those that were working to make "karate" more mainstream to the public, even they say that what was taught "back in the day" was very different than what they themselves learned (reference the quote above). So, at least in technical terms, there was a level of secrecy there because the art being publicly taught was different than what it was originally or at least in the historical past.
In general, consider the following quote from Soken Hohan from about 1978:
"There are many secrets in karate that people will never know and will never understand. These ideas are really not secret if you train in Okinawa under a good teacher. You will see the teacher use these so called secret techniques over and over again until they will become common knowledge to you. Others will look at it and marvel that it is an advanced or secret technique to them. That is because they do not have good teachers or their teachers have not researched their respective styles."
The above is a deep, deep statement. According to Soken, there are "secrets" in karate. But, he does indicate that these secrets are not secrets since you can see them displayed (and by inference, not necessarily taught or explained publicly) by a good and qualified instructor. This reminds me of the fact that Yamada Haruyoshi (9th dan, Hanshi) had a scroll on the wall of his dojo that said:
“The esoteric principles of karate are found within basic technique”
This idea goes back to the discussion we had here on the forum about the terminology of kata and, in particular, kakushi (隠し or kakushite/kakushidi)...that which is hidden or obscured even though it is clearly shown or evidenced (in the kata). And even the concept of "nanjiru gokuden"...that is the secrets learned by yourself and understood through great trial and effort.
So, again, secrets or hidden/obscured aspects to what was being taught? Yes, but not so much in the way modern and/or Western students may think of it. More hidden in plain sight and/or hidden in the sense that you have to personally uncover what is there (i.e. what is being shown to you by a qualified teacher but not specifically being taught explicitly) by means of you continued hard work, training, exploration and learning.
Lastly, look at how the koryu (古流 - old school or traditional) martial arts in Japan were taught. There is a great and interesting (as well as expensive) book by Maki Isaka Morinaga with the title "Secrecy in Japanese Arts: 'Secret Transmission' as a Mode of Knowledge". Secrecy was very much a means of teaching. Such teaching utilized hiden (秘伝 - secret writings) and this was very often in the form of densho (伝書 - a scroll or some form of a "book" that was handed down generation to generation and was considered to be a "book of secrets"). They also used kuden (口伝 - oral instruction) and that too was "secret" as what was taught verbally to one student or deshi was not necessarily taught to others. All of this was a part of the menkyo (免許) licensing system (as opposed to the dan/kyu ranking system used by modern of gendai budo (現代武道). So, if two people trained for 25 years (just as an example) in a koryu art and one of them attained the rank (or license) of menkyo kaiden (免許皆伝 - a license of "total transmission" - the highest level of rank that one can receive), then he will have learned all of the true "secrets" of the art that were not taught to anyone else...including those that had trained for the same amount of time. Just as a side note, there could have been (and were) more than one single person that received a menkyo kaiden in a given ryuha or school of koryu budo. The point here being that, yes...there were secrets that were taught to some and not to others (for a variety of different reasons).
Jeez...I am rambling here more than I usually do! LOL!
Bottom line is, in my opinion, there are secrets in the martial arts. And, in particular, there are secrets within the Okinawan martial arts ("karate") that were not taught to the Japanese (or anyone else for that matter). The art in Okinawa was changed to make it acceptable to the educational system (of Japan and Okinawa) and the mainland population of Japan (given the socio-political environment of the time). So, it was not "appropriated" as was originally asked.
The issue is that you have to define, really, what kind of secret you are asking and looking for as there are several. There are things that became "secret" because they were left out as the art changed. There are things that are "secret" because even though they are clearly visible in what you are shown, you are expected to figure them out yourself. Additionally, there are also things that are "secret" because your instructor never learned them or learned them correctly (for a number of possible reasons).
Sorry to have rambled so much. Hopefully someone will find benefit from all of the above.
_________________
For me bujutsu is not a set of techniques, but a state of the body. Once the principles are integrated, the techniques surge spontaneously because the body is capable of adapting instantaneously. |
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Himokiri Karate
Member of the Month
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 408
Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| tatsujin wrote: |
| Zaine wrote: |
| CK is Cobra Kai. Not sure who Chozen is as I haven't watched the show but Dan is the main character from the movies. |
Ah! Thank you sir! That helps. I would not, personally, rely on a fictional TV show to impart any sort of historical fact. However, if it does spur personal interest, research and learning...then I guess that it has served its purpose.
I think in answering this question, you really have to understand the situation at the time. Many folks have posted good snippets along those lines.
It is important to understand that prior to about 1900, there really were not martial arts "schools" (dojo - 道場). Or styles, or ranks...or any of the things that we would normally think of along those lines. You were merely a "student of so-and-so". 1900 is used a general line of demarcation because it is around this time that "karate" was being pushed into the school system in order to popularize the art and make it more "mainstream" to not only the educational system, but on mainland Japan as well. Funakoshi Gichin was one of the main proponents of this (under Itosu Anko) even said the following:
“Hoping to see Karate included in the physical education taught in our public schools, I revised the kata to make them as simple as possible. Times change, the world changes, and obviously the martial arts must change too. The Karate that high school students practice today is not the same Karate that was practiced even as recently as ten years ago, and it is a long way indeed from the Karate I learned when I was a child in Okinawa.”
Not only does Funakoshi state clearly that he changed the martial arts that were currently being taught as compared to about 10 years ago, but there is a clear implication (that I think may folks often overlook) there as an even earlier change in the martial arts from what he (Funakoshi) learned as a child...or further back in history.
Consider also the quote from Mabuni Kenwa:
"As up to now [1938] karate has only partly been introduced in Tōkyō, people who exercise karate in Tōkyō believe that it solely consists of atemi (punching) and kicking techniques. When talking about gyaku-waza and nage-waza they assume that these only exist in jūjutsu and jūdō. This way of thinking is exceedingly counterproductive with respect to karate itself and can only possibly be attributed to a lack of knowledge. In any case, with respect to the propagation of karate-dō it is exceedingly disappointing that only a small part of the entirety of karate had been introduced in Tōkyō. To those who have the future of karate-dō in mind I recommend to under no circumstances narrow-mindedly hold on to the “nutshell” of a style and a school, but rather to synthetically explore karate as a whole.
We can see that even in 1938 (with just a couple of decades of real exposure in Japan), "karate" had changed such that it was thought of and primarily taught as a punching and kicking art only. Thus loosing a large part of the whole of the original art and being a changed art from what it originally started as.
So, can we say that there are "secrets" that were not being taught at this time? Sure. Look at the pre-1900 situation. No real formal classes or schools that were open to the public...with only a small handful of students being taught at a time. So, technically, a level of secrecy there. Then, as those that were working to make "karate" more mainstream to the public, even they say that what was taught "back in the day" was very different than what they themselves learned (reference the quote above). So, at least in technical terms, there was a level of secrecy there because the art being publicly taught was different than what it was originally or at least in the historical past.
In general, consider the following quote from Soken Hohan from about 1978:
"There are many secrets in karate that people will never know and will never understand. These ideas are really not secret if you train in Okinawa under a good teacher. You will see the teacher use these so called secret techniques over and over again until they will become common knowledge to you. Others will look at it and marvel that it is an advanced or secret technique to them. That is because they do not have good teachers or their teachers have not researched their respective styles."
The above is a deep, deep statement. According to Soken, there are "secrets" in karate. But, he does indicate that these secrets are not secrets since you can see them displayed (and by inference, not necessarily taught or explained publicly) by a good and qualified instructor. This reminds me of the fact that Yamada Haruyoshi (9th dan, Hanshi) had a scroll on the wall of his dojo that said:
“The esoteric principles of karate are found within basic technique”
This idea goes back to the discussion we had here on the forum about the terminology of kata and, in particular, kakushi (隠し or kakushite/kakushidi)...that which is hidden or obscured even though it is clearly shown or evidenced (in the kata). And even the concept of "nanjiru gokuden"...that is the secrets learned by yourself and understood through great trial and effort.
So, again, secrets or hidden/obscured aspects to what was being taught? Yes, but not so much in the way modern and/or Western students may think of it. More hidden in plain sight and/or hidden in the sense that you have to personally uncover what is there (i.e. what is being shown to you by a qualified teacher but not specifically being taught explicitly) by means of you continued hard work, training, exploration and learning.
Lastly, look at how the koryu (古流 - old school or traditional) martial arts in Japan were taught. There is a great and interesting (as well as expensive) book by Maki Isaka Morinaga with the title "Secrecy in Japanese Arts: 'Secret Transmission' as a Mode of Knowledge". Secrecy was very much a means of teaching. Such teaching utilized hiden (秘伝 - secret writings) and this was very often in the form of densho (伝書 - a scroll or some form of a "book" that was handed down generation to generation and was considered to be a "book of secrets"). They also used kuden (口伝 - oral instruction) and that too was "secret" as what was taught verbally to one student or deshi was not necessarily taught to others. All of this was a part of the menkyo (免許) licensing system (as opposed to the dan/kyu ranking system used by modern of gendai budo (現代武道). So, if two people trained for 25 years (just as an example) in a koryu art and one of them attained the rank (or license) of menkyo kaiden (免許皆伝 - a license of "total transmission" - the highest level of rank that one can receive), then he will have learned all of the true "secrets" of the art that were not taught to anyone else...including those that had trained for the same amount of time. Just as a side note, there could have been (and were) more than one single person that received a menkyo kaiden in a given ryuha or school of koryu budo. The point here being that, yes...there were secrets that were taught to some and not to others (for a variety of different reasons).
Jeez...I am rambling here more than I usually do! LOL!
Bottom line is, in my opinion, there are secrets in the martial arts. And, in particular, there are secrets within the Okinawan martial arts ("karate") that were not taught to the Japanese (or anyone else for that matter). The art in Okinawa was changed to make it acceptable to the educational system (of Japan and Okinawa) and the mainland population of Japan (given the socio-political environment of the time). So, it was not "appropriated" as was originally asked.
The issue is that you have to define, really, what kind of secret you are asking and looking for as there are several. There are things that became "secret" because they were left out as the art changed. There are things that are "secret" because even though they are clearly visible in what you are shown, you are expected to figure them out yourself. Additionally, there are also things that are "secret" because your instructor never learned them or learned them correctly (for a number of possible reasons).
Sorry to have rambled so much. Hopefully someone will find benefit from all of the above. |
I read and re-read this post. That is how much I enjoyed it. I want to address the esoteric stuff and I will do so from the yoga perspective. I myself am big in to yoga and yoga has inspired Kung Fu and Kung Fu as we know has influenced Karate and Japanese martial arts. As you know, a Japanese discipline is Kujikiri which is associated with ninjas. Technically speaking, yogis have been using mudras and mantras to go with their meditation. Kujikiri is that discipline that comes in Japanese flavor.
In yoga, the idea is to develop extreme concentration. Part of it is will power and discipline and part of it is to find harmony in your practice. In a way you have to be tough and strong willed but also relaxed and light hearted. There is a balancing act. The next step is to add a layer of difficulty to your meditation by adding movement to it while maintaining those qualities.
Anyways this is what I was taught with the yoga stuff. There is the chakras as well which is part of the meditation. Unlocking it is supposed to grant superpowers that range from trivial, modest, impressive to godlike. I wonder if the karateka secrets revolve around practices that deal with a persons internal landscape.
_________________
It begins with the knowledge that the severity of a strikes impact is amplified by a smaller surface area. |
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tatsujin
Orange Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 162
Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
I read and re-read this post. That is how much I enjoyed it. I want to address the esoteric stuff and I will do so from the yoga perspective. I myself am big in to yoga and yoga has inspired Kung Fu and Kung Fu as we know has influenced Karate and Japanese martial arts. As you know, a Japanese discipline is Kujikiri which is associated with ninjas. Technically speaking, yogis have been using mudras and mantras to go with their meditation. Kujikiri is that discipline that comes in Japanese flavor.
In yoga, the idea is to develop extreme concentration. Part of it is will power and discipline and part of it is to find harmony in your practice. In a way you have to be tough and strong willed but also relaxed and light hearted. There is a balancing act. The next step is to add a layer of difficulty to your meditation by adding movement to it while maintaining those qualities.
Anyways this is what I was taught with the yoga stuff. There is the chakras as well which is part of the meditation. Unlocking it is supposed to grant superpowers that range from trivial, modest, impressive to godlike. I wonder if the karateka secrets revolve around practices that deal with a persons internal landscape. |
I am glad you found some usefulness from my ramblings.
As to kuji-kiri (九字切り and by default kuji-in 九字印), I did respond a few months back to a post of yours...I am not sure if you saw it as there was no response that I saw. You can find it here for reference:
https://www.karateforums.com/the-esoteric-aspect-of-martial-arts-vt53204.html
I would just say in short here that I do think you might have some of the esoteric side of things a bit out of line. But, I don't know where you got your information. And, most certainly your source could be much more knowledgeable than I am. But, I am a follower and adept in the Dragon Gate Sect (Longmen Pai - 龙门派) of the Complete Reality School of Taoism (全真). Taoism itself is replete with esoteric teaching and knowledge. I cannot say that I am personally "sold" on all of the teachings. However, I can say that I have seen some crazy stuff that makes me rethink all that I believe and how the universe works. And it is a wide open area that covers longevity, sleep, sex, general health, meditation, mental/spiritual enlightenment, martial arts and more. If you have a genuine interest in more esoteric aspects of your training (that would go along with your interest in yoga), then you might look to the Dragon Gate. Once you find a qualified instructor, it might really broaden your horizons.
Just a thought...check out that other post if you haven't in the past. You might find something interesting or useful there as well.
_________________
For me bujutsu is not a set of techniques, but a state of the body. Once the principles are integrated, the techniques surge spontaneously because the body is capable of adapting instantaneously. |
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Miick 11
Orange Belt
Joined: 01 Jan 2021
Posts: 128
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| tatsujin wrote: |
| Zaine wrote: |
| CK is Cobra Kai. Not sure who Chozen is as I haven't watched the show but Dan is the main character from the movies. |
Ah! Thank you sir! That helps. I would not, personally, rely on a fictional TV show to impart any sort of historical fact. However, if it does spur personal interest, research and learning...then I guess that it has served its purpose.
I think in answering this question, you really have to understand the situation at the time. Many folks have posted good snippets along those lines.
It is important to understand that prior to about 1900, there really were not martial arts "schools" (dojo - 道場). Or styles, or ranks...or any of the things that we would normally think of along those lines. You were merely a "student of so-and-so". 1900 is used a general line of demarcation because it is around this time that "karate" was being pushed into the school system in order to popularize the art and make it more "mainstream" to not only the educational system, but on mainland Japan as well. Funakoshi Gichin was one of the main proponents of this (under Itosu Anko) even said the following:
“Hoping to see Karate included in the physical education taught in our public schools, I revised the kata to make them as simple as possible. Times change, the world changes, and obviously the martial arts must change too. The Karate that high school students practice today is not the same Karate that was practiced even as recently as ten years ago, and it is a long way indeed from the Karate I learned when I was a child in Okinawa.”
Not only does Funakoshi state clearly that he changed the martial arts that were currently being taught as compared to about 10 years ago, but there is a clear implication (that I think may folks often overlook) there as an even earlier change in the martial arts from what he (Funakoshi) learned as a child...or further back in history.
Consider also the quote from Mabuni Kenwa:
"As up to now [1938] karate has only partly been introduced in Tōkyō, people who exercise karate in Tōkyō believe that it solely consists of atemi (punching) and kicking techniques. When talking about gyaku-waza and nage-waza they assume that these only exist in jūjutsu and jūdō. This way of thinking is exceedingly counterproductive with respect to karate itself and can only possibly be attributed to a lack of knowledge. In any case, with respect to the propagation of karate-dō it is exceedingly disappointing that only a small part of the entirety of karate had been introduced in Tōkyō. To those who have the future of karate-dō in mind I recommend to under no circumstances narrow-mindedly hold on to the “nutshell” of a style and a school, but rather to synthetically explore karate as a whole.
We can see that even in 1938 (with just a couple of decades of real exposure in Japan), "karate" had changed such that it was thought of and primarily taught as a punching and kicking art only. Thus loosing a large part of the whole of the original art and being a changed art from what it originally started as.
So, can we say that there are "secrets" that were not being taught at this time? Sure. Look at the pre-1900 situation. No real formal classes or schools that were open to the public...with only a small handful of students being taught at a time. So, technically, a level of secrecy there. Then, as those that were working to make "karate" more mainstream to the public, even they say that what was taught "back in the day" was very different than what they themselves learned (reference the quote above). So, at least in technical terms, there was a level of secrecy there because the art being publicly taught was different than what it was originally or at least in the historical past.
In general, consider the following quote from Soken Hohan from about 1978:
"There are many secrets in karate that people will never know and will never understand. These ideas are really not secret if you train in Okinawa under a good teacher. You will see the teacher use these so called secret techniques over and over again until they will become common knowledge to you. Others will look at it and marvel that it is an advanced or secret technique to them. That is because they do not have good teachers or their teachers have not researched their respective styles."
The above is a deep, deep statement. According to Soken, there are "secrets" in karate. But, he does indicate that these secrets are not secrets since you can see them displayed (and by inference, not necessarily taught or explained publicly) by a good and qualified instructor. This reminds me of the fact that Yamada Haruyoshi (9th dan, Hanshi) had a scroll on the wall of his dojo that said:
“The esoteric principles of karate are found within basic technique”
This idea goes back to the discussion we had here on the forum about the terminology of kata and, in particular, kakushi (隠し or kakushite/kakushidi)...that which is hidden or obscured even though it is clearly shown or evidenced (in the kata). And even the concept of "nanjiru gokuden"...that is the secrets learned by yourself and understood through great trial and effort.
So, again, secrets or hidden/obscured aspects to what was being taught? Yes, but not so much in the way modern and/or Western students may think of it. More hidden in plain sight and/or hidden in the sense that you have to personally uncover what is there (i.e. what is being shown to you by a qualified teacher but not specifically being taught explicitly) by means of you continued hard work, training, exploration and learning.
Lastly, look at how the koryu (古流 - old school or traditional) martial arts in Japan were taught. There is a great and interesting (as well as expensive) book by Maki Isaka Morinaga with the title "Secrecy in Japanese Arts: 'Secret Transmission' as a Mode of Knowledge". Secrecy was very much a means of teaching. Such teaching utilized hiden (秘伝 - secret writings) and this was very often in the form of densho (伝書 - a scroll or some form of a "book" that was handed down generation to generation and was considered to be a "book of secrets"). They also used kuden (口伝 - oral instruction) and that too was "secret" as what was taught verbally to one student or deshi was not necessarily taught to others. All of this was a part of the menkyo (免許) licensing system (as opposed to the dan/kyu ranking system used by modern of gendai budo (現代武道). So, if two people trained for 25 years (just as an example) in a koryu art and one of them attained the rank (or license) of menkyo kaiden (免許皆伝 - a license of "total transmission" - the highest level of rank that one can receive), then he will have learned all of the true "secrets" of the art that were not taught to anyone else...including those that had trained for the same amount of time. Just as a side note, there could have been (and were) more than one single person that received a menkyo kaiden in a given ryuha or school of koryu budo. The point here being that, yes...there were secrets that were taught to some and not to others (for a variety of different reasons).
Jeez...I am rambling here more than I usually do! LOL!
Bottom line is, in my opinion, there are secrets in the martial arts. And, in particular, there are secrets within the Okinawan martial arts ("karate") that were not taught to the Japanese (or anyone else for that matter). The art in Okinawa was changed to make it acceptable to the educational system (of Japan and Okinawa) and the mainland population of Japan (given the socio-political environment of the time). So, it was not "appropriated" as was originally asked.
The issue is that you have to define, really, what kind of secret you are asking and looking for as there are several. There are things that became "secret" because they were left out as the art changed. There are things that are "secret" because even though they are clearly visible in what you are shown, you are expected to figure them out yourself. Additionally, there are also things that are "secret" because your instructor never learned them or learned them correctly (for a number of possible reasons).
Sorry to have rambled so much. Hopefully someone will find benefit from all of the above. |
Sometimes I feel we have the same insights But I got them via Hohan Sokken > Kosei Nishihira > their students ( ie some where students of both ) > me .... and my own study and research .
We practice the old style from Hohan Soken . I wrote this here before ; Soken came back from Argentina to Okinawa and saw some people practicing ' karate ', he asked ' What are those people doing ? " ..... the surprised response was "Karate "
Soken didnt even recognize it as karate . Much of our kata has 'historical' application :
eg , a double flying big toe kick ; the first one up the second one out ; the first flicks the brim of the amigasa, or similar, up, puling the strap and chin up, the next goes into the throat .
or Kusanku , where the arms of the other are swept down , their front hair comb is snatched out and rammed back into their throat . |
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Himokiri Karate
Member of the Month
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 408
Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| tatsujin wrote: |
| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
I read and re-read this post. That is how much I enjoyed it. I want to address the esoteric stuff and I will do so from the yoga perspective. I myself am big in to yoga and yoga has inspired Kung Fu and Kung Fu as we know has influenced Karate and Japanese martial arts. As you know, a Japanese discipline is Kujikiri which is associated with ninjas. Technically speaking, yogis have been using mudras and mantras to go with their meditation. Kujikiri is that discipline that comes in Japanese flavor.
In yoga, the idea is to develop extreme concentration. Part of it is will power and discipline and part of it is to find harmony in your practice. In a way you have to be tough and strong willed but also relaxed and light hearted. There is a balancing act. The next step is to add a layer of difficulty to your meditation by adding movement to it while maintaining those qualities.
Anyways this is what I was taught with the yoga stuff. There is the chakras as well which is part of the meditation. Unlocking it is supposed to grant superpowers that range from trivial, modest, impressive to godlike. I wonder if the karateka secrets revolve around practices that deal with a persons internal landscape. |
I am glad you found some usefulness from my ramblings.
As to kuji-kiri (九字切り and by default kuji-in 九字印), I did respond a few months back to a post of yours...I am not sure if you saw it as there was no response that I saw. You can find it here for reference:
https://www.karateforums.com/the-esoteric-aspect-of-martial-arts-vt53204.html
I would just say in short here that I do think you might have some of the esoteric side of things a bit out of line. But, I don't know where you got your information. And, most certainly your source could be much more knowledgeable than I am. But, I am a follower and adept in the Dragon Gate Sect (Longmen Pai - 龙门派) of the Complete Reality School of Taoism (全真). Taoism itself is replete with esoteric teaching and knowledge. I cannot say that I am personally "sold" on all of the teachings. However, I can say that I have seen some crazy stuff that makes me rethink all that I believe and how the universe works. And it is a wide open area that covers longevity, sleep, sex, general health, meditation, mental/spiritual enlightenment, martial arts and more. If you have a genuine interest in more esoteric aspects of your training (that would go along with your interest in yoga), then you might look to the Dragon Gate. Once you find a qualified instructor, it might really broaden your horizons.
Just a thought...check out that other post if you haven't in the past. You might find something interesting or useful there as well. |
I just responded and it was an amazing post. Now that you mentioned dragon gate. I remember a book written by by François Lépine.
I think he talked about Kuji-in and Qi-Gong. The pics depicted moving meditation or something to that nature. I have to re-read it again.
As far as the supernatural topic goes, I really love David's work. He is a computer scientist and breaks it down in a very pragmatic manner. His teaching is more clinical and devoid of culture but more from the perspective of how a supernatural would occur and that some folks have a conscious mastery of it and some cannot control it because their mental landscape is too messy for consistent replication of ability. Some folks who have these abilities can perform them in a conditional setting from a place of comfort an quietness but not if their surrounding is messy. While he mentions that a true master can perform their abilities under any condition. Stress, fear and excitement is said to cause a blockage in the Chakras which shuts down a manifestation of a special ability.
This is what I have been told. I would love for a day to come so that I too can experience the pinnacle of human potential.
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tatsujin
Orange Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 162
Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Himokiri Karate"
I just responded and it was an amazing post. Now that you mentioned dragon gate. I remember a book written by by François Lépine.
I think he talked about Kuji-in and Qi-Gong. The pics depicted moving meditation or something to that nature. I have to re-read it again.
As far as the supernatural topic goes, I really love David's work. He is a computer scientist and breaks it down in a very pragmatic manner. His teaching is more clinical and devoid of culture but more from the perspective of how a supernatural would occur and that some folks have a conscious mastery of it and some cannot control it because their mental landscape is too messy for consistent replication of ability. Some folks who have these abilities can perform them in a conditional setting from a place of comfort an quietness but not if their surrounding is messy. While he mentions that a true master can perform their abilities under any condition. Stress, fear and excitement is said to cause a blockage in the Chakras which shuts down a manifestation of a special ability.
This is what I have been told. I would love for a day to come so that I too can experience the pinnacle of human potential.[/quote]
Glad you liked some of the rambling! LOL! I just responded there to some of the information you were asking for (as best I could).
Lepine's stuff is interesting. I am still undecided on some of it.
I will, if you don't mind, make a recommendation to you...
Unless you have a qualified hands on instructor, stay away from the chakra stuff. At least until you have built a good foundation. I'll try to keep the reasoning behind this warning brief as it an really turn into a wide ranging rambling...LOL!
Generally speaking, there are two methods of any energetic art or practice. The water method and the fire method. The fire method(s) are any that essentially draw energy UP through the body. It is very Yang and very "hot" in nature. The water method(s) are those that have the energy come DOWN through the body. Yin in nature and much more "passive" or "gentle" in nature. You can train both. I have and I do. And, I teach that way. However, I rely primarily on the water method(s).
The simplest way to look at this (for those that believe in qi...or whatever you want to call it)...a very simplistic explanation...qi is like energy. It moves through the body using the meridians, the extraordinary meridians and the fascia. Nerves also play a big role in this. The more "current" (qi) you want to run through a transfer medium (like wire), the stronger the wire needs to be to support it. Wire is rated for the current you are going to run through it. Run too much through a wire that can't handle it and it heats up massively and can melt. The idea here is that it does damage. The body is the same way. The internal infrastructure needs to be able to support the amount of energy you want to run through it. Run too much before the system can handle it and you get "too hot" and can "melt things". Qigong sickness is a real thing (Zou huo ru mo - 走火入魔). Kundalini and other chakra related systems can blast way too much "current" through a system (your body) that is not ready for it. It just isn't worth playing with (risk/reward model). IF you must get into a fire method (especially if you are attempting to do it on your own), you need to spend 20% of your time on it (fire method) and 80% of you time on a water method. That doesn't mean that you can't "go play with the fire". Just lay the proper foundation before doing so. Been there, done that and (unfortunately) got the t-shirt.
Last piece of advice if I may on this topic? Don't set out to chase the "pinnacle of human potential" or any other kind of outcome. Let what comes to you come to you. Enjoy it when it comes. Learn from it. Build upon it. But, don't force it. Don't chase it. Don't desire it.
Your mileage (and that of anyone reading this) may certainly vary.
Rambling mode off for the night! Hope that is of some help to you.
_________________
For me bujutsu is not a set of techniques, but a state of the body. Once the principles are integrated, the techniques surge spontaneously because the body is capable of adapting instantaneously. |
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Himokiri Karate
Member of the Month
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 408
Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| tatsujin wrote: |
[quote="Himokiri Karate"
I just responded and it was an amazing post. Now that you mentioned dragon gate. I remember a book written by by François Lépine.
I think he talked about Kuji-in and Qi-Gong. The pics depicted moving meditation or something to that nature. I have to re-read it again.
As far as the supernatural topic goes, I really love David's work. He is a computer scientist and breaks it down in a very pragmatic manner. His teaching is more clinical and devoid of culture but more from the perspective of how a supernatural would occur and that some folks have a conscious mastery of it and some cannot control it because their mental landscape is too messy for consistent replication of ability. Some folks who have these abilities can perform them in a conditional setting from a place of comfort an quietness but not if their surrounding is messy. While he mentions that a true master can perform their abilities under any condition. Stress, fear and excitement is said to cause a blockage in the Chakras which shuts down a manifestation of a special ability.
This is what I have been told. I would love for a day to come so that I too can experience the pinnacle of human potential. |
Glad you liked some of the rambling! LOL! I just responded there to some of the information you were asking for (as best I could).
Lepine's stuff is interesting. I am still undecided on some of it.
I will, if you don't mind, make a recommendation to you...
Unless you have a qualified hands on instructor, stay away from the chakra stuff. At least until you have built a good foundation. I'll try to keep the reasoning behind this warning brief as it an really turn into a wide ranging rambling...LOL!
Generally speaking, there are two methods of any energetic art or practice. The water method and the fire method. The fire method(s) are any that essentially draw energy UP through the body. It is very Yang and very "hot" in nature. The water method(s) are those that have the energy come DOWN through the body. Yin in nature and much more "passive" or "gentle" in nature. You can train both. I have and I do. And, I teach that way. However, I rely primarily on the water method(s).
The simplest way to look at this (for those that believe in qi...or whatever you want to call it)...a very simplistic explanation...qi is like energy. It moves through the body using the meridians, the extraordinary meridians and the fascia. Nerves also play a big role in this. The more "current" (qi) you want to run through a transfer medium (like wire), the stronger the wire needs to be to support it. Wire is rated for the current you are going to run through it. Run too much through a wire that can't handle it and it heats up massively and can melt. The idea here is that it does damage. The body is the same way. The internal infrastructure needs to be able to support the amount of energy you want to run through it. Run too much before the system can handle it and you get "too hot" and can "melt things". Qigong sickness is a real thing (Zou huo ru mo - 走火入魔). Kundalini and other chakra related systems can blast way too much "current" through a system (your body) that is not ready for it. It just isn't worth playing with (risk/reward model). IF you must get into a fire method (especially if you are attempting to do it on your own), you need to spend 20% of your time on it (fire method) and 80% of you time on a water method. That doesn't mean that you can't "go play with the fire". Just lay the proper foundation before doing so. Been there, done that and (unfortunately) got the t-shirt.
Last piece of advice if I may on this topic? Don't set out to chase the "pinnacle of human potential" or any other kind of outcome. Let what comes to you come to you. Enjoy it when it comes. Learn from it. Build upon it. But, don't force it. Don't chase it. Don't desire it.
Your mileage (and that of anyone reading this) may certainly vary.
Rambling mode off for the night! Hope that is of some help to you.[/quote]
This is what David mentioned as well. He said that before getting in to Chakras, you should take care of your mental landscape which includes working out whatever trauma or suppressed memory that is deep in to the psyche. Once you come to terms with it, then you can start with light training. The color white since it has all the colors and the activation of all the chakras will be done evenly for a more symmetrical approach to activation.
I have had one bad chakra session. I decided to visualize the color gold or the halo and I had a hard and I mean HARD shutdown!
Aside from that, bad chakra session is usually anxious energy for me and so its best done early in the morning. But just like physical training, its good to do regular meditation as a warm up and also to end session gracefully.
One thing I learned from yoga that I keep forgetting is, yoga that is marketed is what exercise is to martial arts in terms of warming up, stretching and prepping for the actual session. What I mean is, the whole point of yoga is to prime yourself for the main course sort of speak. The yoga asanas allow you to reach a state of relaxation so that the chakra work and the deep esoteric chakra meditation sessions can be done in a state in which the body is relaxed and not angsty. After yoga, I feel so relaxed and chilled. This is a good state to be in when working with the powers that be.
The antagonist of this scenario is, being hopped up on everything that makes you frantic and emotionally wild and unstable. Now you add chakra energy to a person who is imbalanced and frantic and you end up with body having a hard shutdown which leads to time for recovery. All and all, what we do at yoga studio is the appetizer and that after classes is when the real yoga session begins or SHOULD begin if we are considering the totality of it all.
As far as Qi Gong and Kujikiri goes, I will have to better educate myself. I have no rebuttal since these two particular arts are something I enjoy but have never truly talked to many people and thus I lack different perspective. With yoga, I have talked to many trainers, they shared their point of view and personal experience and with that, there is reference point of many types of experiences from people with different character archetype. Qi Gong sounds like an umbrella term for many things. Dr. Frank Youngs Yogametrics seems like a practice similar to iron wire form of Hung Ga Kung Fu. Very similar and yet also very different in the intent in regards to achieving goals and results. That being said, I have no doubt in my mind that Iron Wire is going to be very different than yoga metrics when fully engaged in its subtlety. But from the naked eye, they look similar.
Speaking of Hung Ga, I believe this particular Kung Fu gave birth to Karate or was one of the main styles that inspired karate if I recall correctly. I guess its my way of bringing everything back to karate since this is karateforum.com 
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Himokiri Karate
Member of the Month
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 408
Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
| tatsujin wrote: |
[quote="Himokiri Karate"
I just responded and it was an amazing post. Now that you mentioned dragon gate. I remember a book written by by François Lépine.
I think he talked about Kuji-in and Qi-Gong. The pics depicted moving meditation or something to that nature. I have to re-read it again.
As far as the supernatural topic goes, I really love David's work. He is a computer scientist and breaks it down in a very pragmatic manner. His teaching is more clinical and devoid of culture but more from the perspective of how a supernatural would occur and that some folks have a conscious mastery of it and some cannot control it because their mental landscape is too messy for consistent replication of ability. Some folks who have these abilities can perform them in a conditional setting from a place of comfort an quietness but not if their surrounding is messy. While he mentions that a true master can perform their abilities under any condition. Stress, fear and excitement is said to cause a blockage in the Chakras which shuts down a manifestation of a special ability.
This is what I have been told. I would love for a day to come so that I too can experience the pinnacle of human potential. |
Glad you liked some of the rambling! LOL! I just responded there to some of the information you were asking for (as best I could).
Lepine's stuff is interesting. I am still undecided on some of it.
I will, if you don't mind, make a recommendation to you...
Unless you have a qualified hands on instructor, stay away from the chakra stuff. At least until you have built a good foundation. I'll try to keep the reasoning behind this warning brief as it an really turn into a wide ranging rambling...LOL!
Generally speaking, there are two methods of any energetic art or practice. The water method and the fire method. The fire method(s) are any that essentially draw energy UP through the body. It is very Yang and very "hot" in nature. The water method(s) are those that have the energy come DOWN through the body. Yin in nature and much more "passive" or "gentle" in nature. You can train both. I have and I do. And, I teach that way. However, I rely primarily on the water method(s).
The simplest way to look at this (for those that believe in qi...or whatever you want to call it)...a very simplistic explanation...qi is like energy. It moves through the body using the meridians, the extraordinary meridians and the fascia. Nerves also play a big role in this. The more "current" (qi) you want to run through a transfer medium (like wire), the stronger the wire needs to be to support it. Wire is rated for the current you are going to run through it. Run too much through a wire that can't handle it and it heats up massively and can melt. The idea here is that it does damage. The body is the same way. The internal infrastructure needs to be able to support the amount of energy you want to run through it. Run too much before the system can handle it and you get "too hot" and can "melt things". Qigong sickness is a real thing (Zou huo ru mo - 走火入魔). Kundalini and other chakra related systems can blast way too much "current" through a system (your body) that is not ready for it. It just isn't worth playing with (risk/reward model). IF you must get into a fire method (especially if you are attempting to do it on your own), you need to spend 20% of your time on it (fire method) and 80% of you time on a water method. That doesn't mean that you can't "go play with the fire". Just lay the proper foundation before doing so. Been there, done that and (unfortunately) got the t-shirt.
Last piece of advice if I may on this topic? Don't set out to chase the "pinnacle of human potential" or any other kind of outcome. Let what comes to you come to you. Enjoy it when it comes. Learn from it. Build upon it. But, don't force it. Don't chase it. Don't desire it.
Your mileage (and that of anyone reading this) may certainly vary.
Rambling mode off for the night! Hope that is of some help to you. |
This is what David mentioned as well. He said that before getting in to Chakras, you should take care of your mental landscape which includes working out whatever trauma or suppressed memory that is deep in to the psyche. Once you come to terms with it, then you can start with light training. The color white since it has all the colors and the activation of all the chakras will be done evenly for a more symmetrical approach to activation.
I have had one bad chakra session. I decided to visualize the color gold or the halo and I had a hard and I mean HARD shutdown!
Aside from that, bad chakra session is usually anxious energy for me and so its best done early in the morning. But just like physical training, its good to do regular meditation as a warm up and also to end session gracefully.
One thing I learned from yoga that I keep forgetting is, yoga that is marketed is what exercise is to martial arts in terms of warming up, stretching and prepping for the actual session. What I mean is, the whole point of yoga is to prime yourself for the main course sort of speak. The yoga asanas allow you to reach a state of relaxation so that the chakra work and the deep esoteric chakra meditation sessions can be done in a state in which the body is relaxed and not angsty. After yoga, I feel so relaxed and chilled. This is a good state to be in when working with the powers that be.
The antagonist of this scenario is, being hopped up on everything that makes you frantic and emotionally wild and unstable. Now you add chakra energy to a person who is imbalanced and frantic and you end up with body having a hard shutdown which leads to time for recovery. All and all, what we do at yoga studio is the appetizer and that after classes is when the real yoga session begins or SHOULD begin if we are considering the totality of it all.
As far as Qi Gong and Kujikiri goes, I will have to better educate myself. I have no rebuttal since these two particular arts are something I enjoy but have never truly talked to many people and thus I lack different perspective. With yoga, I have talked to many trainers, they shared their point of view and personal experience and with that, there is reference point of many types of experiences from people with different character archetype. Qi Gong sounds like an umbrella term for many things. Dr. Frank Youngs Yogametrics seems like a practice similar to iron wire form of Hung Ga Kung Fu. Very similar and yet also very different in the intent in regards to achieving goals and results. That being said, I have no doubt in my mind that Iron Wire is going to be very different than yoga metrics when fully engaged in its subtlety. But from the naked eye, they look similar.
Speaking of Hung Ga, I believe this particular Kung Fu gave birth to Karate or was one of the main styles that inspired karate if I recall correctly. I guess its my way of bringing everything back to karate since this is karateforum.com [/quote]
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on the post.
