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Himokiri Karate
Member of the Month
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 408
Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate
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 Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:26 pm Post subject: Did Okinawans teach Japanese Karate or was it appropriated? |
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In season 2 of CK, Chozen told Dan about Japan invading Okinawa. But recently I was reading about the history of Okinawa and Japan. That Okinawan karate masters and senseis did not share everything with the Japanese and that they kept their best move secrets. I heard this in a martial arts podcast and I am not sure how accurate this is but aside from that, I actually love to know more about Japan's history of learning karate from Okinawa.
This interest came from my recent readings of Karate in Korea and it was a truly wild and interesting story or stories about how Tang Soo Do was born and then it became Taekwondo and I really enjoyed it. That and there are so many untold stories that I have yet to get to and share some once I gain full perspective.
Now I love to hear about Okinawa/Japan Karate connection. Tell me or recommend me movies, docs or books in regards to this or even your own personal experience!
_________________
It begins with the knowledge that the severity of a strikes impact is amplified by a smaller surface area. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Without giving a drawn-out history lesson, here's it in a nutshell.
Around 1920s Gichin Funakoshi, who's Okinawan, was invited by the Japanese Ministry of Education to give a demonstration in Kyoto. Following his demonstration, he stayed in Japan and began to teach Karate to the Japanese.
To me, that sounds like it wasn't appropriated.
The Battle of Okinawa was in 1945, some 20 years before Gichin Funakoshi was invited to Japan. With that being said, Karate was already in Japan...by invitation.
Imho!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Miick 11
Orange Belt
Joined: 01 Jan 2021
Posts: 128
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:20 am Post subject: Re: Did Okinawans teach Japanese Karate or was it appropriat |
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| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
| In season 2 of CK, Chozen told Dan about Japan invading Okinawa. But recently I was reading about the history of Okinawa and Japan. That Okinawan karate masters and senseis did not share everything with the Japanese and that they kept their best move secrets. I heard this in a martial arts podcast and I am not sure how accurate this is but aside from that, I actually love to know more about Japan's history of learning karate from Okinawa. |
I am sure many Okinawan masters kept their best moves secret . And by way of this, not everything passed into Japanese karate . In particular one needs to look at Itosu . He trained for a bit with Matsamura (who told him he was not fast enough and did not want to teach him anymore ) so he went elsewhere and trained hard under another master who actually only taught him body building - which he didn't even seem to realize until Master tells him on his deathbed . So he went elsewhere again .
Then he developed his own style suitable to teach in school system in Okinawa . So already a HEAP of stuff is left out or modified for school kids .
Also he was Funakoshi's teacher
And then he took this system to Japan , pre-empting Funakoshi ;
" It was Itosu who brought Karate from the shadows into the light of public study. (4) In 1901 he began instructing karate at the Shuri Jinjo Primary school (Iwai 1992, Okinawa Pref. 1994) and taught at the Dai Ichi middle school and the Okinawa prefectural Men's Normal School in 1905 (Bishop 1999, Okinawa Pref. 1994, 1995).
...
" In October of 1908 Itosu realized it was time for Karate to reach beyond the shores of Okinawa to the heart of Japan itself. It was to this end that he wrote his famous letter of Ten Precepts (Tode Jukun) to draw the attention of both the Ministry of Education as well as the Ministry of War. After demonstrations were held for several naval vessels, the most important of which was the 1912 visit of Admiral Dewa, karate emerged as an attractive vehicle for developing young fighting men for the imperialistic Japanese government of the period. "
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=1
Then there was all the stuff Funakoshi cntributed to Japanese karate .
So we could say , NO not everything was shared with the Japanese .
Not everything was shared with the Okinawans ether . Eg from the same source above ;
" It is perhaps one of the greatest testaments to the skill of this karateka ( Itosu ) that he developed such a group of superb students, who in turn promoted his art. The karate that descended from Itosu represents one of the great Okinawan karate heritages known as Shorin-Ryu. His students comprise a virtual "who's who" of the founding fathers of modern karate. They include: Kentsu Yabu, Chomo Hanashiro, Jiro Shiroma, Chojo Oshiro, Shigeru Nakamura Anbun Tokuda, Moden Yabiku, Kenwa Mabuni, Gichin Funakoshi, Chosin Chibana, Moden Yabiku, and Choki Motobu (who contrary to popular stories spent some eight years of training under Itosu). "
yet here , and nearly all karate history nothing is said of that 'other line from Matsamura ' that did not undergo all these dynamics and changes . And the names of the people in that tradition from Matsamura do not appear above .
Hence that tradition is sorta secret , to most . It certainly is not in Japanese style , nor 'Okinawan school style' nor anything that followed on from it . Its not even in many "Shorin-ryu " schools .
- I have written more about it here in other posts .
| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
This interest came from my recent readings of Karate in Korea and it was a truly wild and interesting story or stories about how Tang Soo Do was born and then it became Taekwondo and I really enjoyed it. That and there are so many untold stories that I have yet to get to and share some once I gain full perspective.
Now I love to hear about Okinawa/Japan Karate connection. Tell me or recommend me movies, docs or books in regards to this or even your own personal experience! |
I hope you liked the 'juice' above . |
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Miick 11
Orange Belt
Joined: 01 Jan 2021
Posts: 128
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Without giving a drawn-out history lesson, here's it in a nutshell.
Around 1920s Gichin Funakoshi, who's Okinawan, was invited by the Japanese Ministry of Education to give a demonstration in Kyoto. Following his demonstration, he stayed in Japan and began to teach Karate to the Japanese.
To me, that sounds like it wasn't appropriated.
The Battle of Okinawa was in 1945, some 20 years before Gichin Funakoshi was invited to Japan. With that being said, Karate was already in Japan...by invitation.
Imho!!
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Hmmmm ... cant see where it was suggested that it was appropriated by Japan .
But in a way, I felt it had been . I started Shotokan as a kid and did it for many years .
Not once did I hear of Okinawa or the real history of karate's origins . It was all Funakoshi ..... a little shoman in the east with his pic on the wall . I guess if I pressed anyone ( that knew about it ) they would have said , 'Yes, originally Okinawa , but that is part of Japan . "
Thing is , Japan 'appropriated' the whole country of Okinawa , not just its karate |
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Himokiri Karate
Member of the Month
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 408
Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Did Okinawans teach Japanese Karate or was it appropriat |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Without giving a drawn-out history lesson, here's it in a nutshell.
Around 1920s Gichin Funakoshi, who's Okinawan, was invited by the Japanese Ministry of Education to give a demonstration in Kyoto. Following his demonstration, he stayed in Japan and began to teach Karate to the Japanese.
To me, that sounds like it wasn't appropriated.
The Battle of Okinawa was in 1945, some 20 years before Gichin Funakoshi was invited to Japan. With that being said, Karate was already in Japan...by invitation.
Imho!!
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This makes sense because its impossible to appropriate a martial art style that is in-depth and full of subtle movements. In boxing, you either know it or you know a very poor version of it. The poor version can be spotted easily and generally speaking 98 percent of the people want fitness boxing and so boxing tends to escape scrutiny.
But Karate is not really part of the fitness culture and so a karateka has to know their stuff. In fact now more than ever because of the prominent presence of Muay Thai and MMA, a sensei has to give students superb and brutal training with the knowledge that is of the highest quality. In the past, I have heard brutal karate fights and that is why they created the point system. But my point being is, at one point, karate HAD to work for real and it would make sense to have a willing sensei teach the Japanese the real deal for most parts.
| Miick 11 wrote: |
| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
| In season 2 of CK, Chozen told Dan about Japan invading Okinawa. But recently I was reading about the history of Okinawa and Japan. That Okinawan karate masters and senseis did not share everything with the Japanese and that they kept their best move secrets. I heard this in a martial arts podcast and I am not sure how accurate this is but aside from that, I actually love to know more about Japan's history of learning karate from Okinawa. |
I am sure many Okinawan masters kept their best moves secret . And by way of this, not everything passed into Japanese karate . In particular one needs to look at Itosu . He trained for a bit with Matsamura (who told him he was not fast enough and did not want to teach him anymore ) so he went elsewhere and trained hard under another master who actually only taught him body building - which he didn't even seem to realize until Master tells him on his deathbed . So he went elsewhere again .
Then he developed his own style suitable to teach in school system in Okinawa . So already a HEAP of stuff is left out or modified for school kids .
Also he was Funakoshi's teacher
And then he took this system to Japan , pre-empting Funakoshi ;
" It was Itosu who brought Karate from the shadows into the light of public study. (4) In 1901 he began instructing karate at the Shuri Jinjo Primary school (Iwai 1992, Okinawa Pref. 1994) and taught at the Dai Ichi middle school and the Okinawa prefectural Men's Normal School in 1905 (Bishop 1999, Okinawa Pref. 1994, 1995).
...
" In October of 1908 Itosu realized it was time for Karate to reach beyond the shores of Okinawa to the heart of Japan itself. It was to this end that he wrote his famous letter of Ten Precepts (Tode Jukun) to draw the attention of both the Ministry of Education as well as the Ministry of War. After demonstrations were held for several naval vessels, the most important of which was the 1912 visit of Admiral Dewa, karate emerged as an attractive vehicle for developing young fighting men for the imperialistic Japanese government of the period. "
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=1
Then there was all the stuff Funakoshi cntributed to Japanese karate .
So we could say , NO not everything was shared with the Japanese .
Not everything was shared with the Okinawans ether . Eg from the same source above ;
" It is perhaps one of the greatest testaments to the skill of this karateka ( Itosu ) that he developed such a group of superb students, who in turn promoted his art. The karate that descended from Itosu represents one of the great Okinawan karate heritages known as Shorin-Ryu. His students comprise a virtual "who's who" of the founding fathers of modern karate. They include: Kentsu Yabu, Chomo Hanashiro, Jiro Shiroma, Chojo Oshiro, Shigeru Nakamura Anbun Tokuda, Moden Yabiku, Kenwa Mabuni, Gichin Funakoshi, Chosin Chibana, Moden Yabiku, and Choki Motobu (who contrary to popular stories spent some eight years of training under Itosu). "
yet here , and nearly all karate history nothing is said of that 'other line from Matsamura ' that did not undergo all these dynamics and changes . And the names of the people in that tradition from Matsamura do not appear above .
Hence that tradition is sorta secret , to most . It certainly is not in Japanese style , nor 'Okinawan school style' nor anything that followed on from it . Its not even in many "Shorin-ryu " schools .
- I have written more about it here in other posts .
| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
This interest came from my recent readings of Karate in Korea and it was a truly wild and interesting story or stories about how Tang Soo Do was born and then it became Taekwondo and I really enjoyed it. That and there are so many untold stories that I have yet to get to and share some once I gain full perspective.
Now I love to hear about Okinawa/Japan Karate connection. Tell me or recommend me movies, docs or books in regards to this or even your own personal experience! |
I hope you liked the 'juice' above . |
That is amazing, thank you for sharing this. Sometimes teachers hold back because they do not want their students to open their own dojo and compete. Better monopolize the market I guess. Sometimes the teacher is trying to make sure the student is well equipped. The sensei that taught the students body building was still doing him favors. Sure it might have been deception but the student also learned the physical aspect of being a martial artist. Also knowing bodybuilding is good for test levels and boosts GH naturally.
See its complicated because I can see both perspective.
_________________
It begins with the knowledge that the severity of a strikes impact is amplified by a smaller surface area. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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This kind of story has run rampant through the annals of MA training, back to when it was one master and one student. At times, I wonder how much of it is actually the case. I also realize that with enough time and training, one can probably figure out those things that have been left out of the teachings. There are only so many ways the body can move, and I think the bulk of possible applications have been exposed over the years. Often times today, seeking another style replaces the seeking of another master.
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Miick 11
Orange Belt
Joined: 01 Jan 2021
Posts: 128
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Did Okinawans teach Japanese Karate or was it appropriat |
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| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
That is amazing, thank you for sharing this. Sometimes teachers hold back because they do not want their students to open their own dojo and compete. Better monopolize the market I guess. |
Not just that . Many teachers never had dojos or dojo tradition in Okinawa ( my style is a 'traditional family' style ) . The last master of my style ,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosei_Nishihira
never did . He never charged fees either , not to HIS students anyway ( you might have been drafted into his production line though when his training room got converted back into a bento box business  ) . Only time I saw him in gi was for group photo with students . Once when asked what belt he had he looked down at his slacks ( that he usually trained in ) belt and said " Today , it is brown . " . Other Masters came from all over the place to get his teaching . At his funeral many of these attended , amazing the neighbors - they had no idea he had been a world class karate master .
His teacher , Hohan Soken commented ( way back after his trip to USA ) " We teach a few people from America . We tell them, you come back and study more . But they never come back . " ( it needs to be remembered that even ten a back then this was not even a club, dojo nor had a name , they where referred to as Mr Soken's group - later they adopted some names but soon changed them ) " Now I see many many people here doing karate , clubs , competition . We had no idea when we taught you that you would go home, open clubs teach so many people. "
At a guess I would say he was impressed by their love of karate but not the 'big $$$ biz' it became ..... or maybe thought he should have got cut ..... I dont know if Soken charged fees .
I dont , I refuse . I see what happens to karate when its tried to be turned into a business , especially a primary income business ! - got no gi nor dojo either . Training is at park by river in town or at home in my outside grassy flatish area " The Circle of Death ' .
| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
Sometimes the teacher is trying to make sure the student is well equipped. The sensei that taught the students body building was still doing him favors. Sure it might have been deception but the student also learned the physical aspect of being a martial artist. Also knowing bodybuilding is good for test levels and boosts GH naturally.
See its complicated because I can see both perspective. |
Certainly , there is more than one perspective ! |
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tatsujin
Orange Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 162
Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Did Okinawans teach Japanese Karate or was it appropriat |
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| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
| In season 2 of CK, Chozen told Dan about Japan invading Okinawa. |
To better help frame the most appropriate response, can you tell me what CK is (I am assuming some sort of TV show since you mention "season 2"...but you know what they say about assumptions...) and who Chozen and Dan are?
Thanks.
_________________
For me bujutsu is not a set of techniques, but a state of the body. Once the principles are integrated, the techniques surge spontaneously because the body is capable of adapting instantaneously. |
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2279
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| tatsujin wrote: |
| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
| In season 2 of CK, Chozen told Dan about Japan invading Okinawa. |
To better help frame the most appropriate response, can you tell me what CK is (I am assuming some sort of TV show since you mention "season 2"...but you know what they say about assumptions...) and who Chozen and Dan are?
Thanks. |
CK is Cobra Kai. Not sure who Chozen is as I haven't watched the show but Dan is the main character from the movies.
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Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
https://www.instagram.com/nordic_karate/ |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| Zaine wrote: |
| tatsujin wrote: |
| Himokiri Karate wrote: |
| In season 2 of CK, Chozen told Dan about Japan invading Okinawa. |
To better help frame the most appropriate response, can you tell me what CK is (I am assuming some sort of TV show since you mention "season 2"...but you know what they say about assumptions...) and who Chozen and Dan are?
Thanks. |
CK is Cobra Kai. Not sure who Chozen is as I haven't watched the show but Dan is the main character from the movies. |
Chozen was the antagonistic foe for Daniel in Karate Kid 2 movie series, and he reprised his role in Cobra Kai Season 3...just for grins and giggles.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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on the post.
