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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6148
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prototype wrote:
DWx wrote:
Prototype wrote:

Shotokan does not have a standing mawashi geri. It does have however a "lying down version of mawashi geri", but that's not the same.

Surely that would be flashier?

Out of the two, I still think ITF is closer to Shotokan kata than the Kukkiwon equivalents. They essentially just copied and pasted them and added a TKD twist. Loads of examples of this:

Heian Nidan vs Won Hyo


How do you know it's from Shotokan when Funakoshi copied and modified his Katas from Okinawans, who took it from Kung Fu...

Not sure I understand the question? As to how close Chang Hon TKD is to Shotokan the above videos IMHO illustrate that.

If you really want to take it down to bare bones... then yes ultimately everyone comes from something else. However as far as Chang Hon TKD is concerned, this is widely regarding to be directly descendant from Shotokan.
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Prototype
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Joined: 15 Dec 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyway, since I am somewhat of a hobby expert on this: Chang Hon/ITF TKD has identical kicking techniques to Tang Soo Do, KKW, has both the traditional variation of kicking technqiues, and modernized sparring variation. The differences beyond that is some kung fu animal element in in TSD which TKD left behind.

Katas are also different. TSD uses Shotokan katas plus a few kung fu ones, TKD has it's own stuff.
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
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Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 661
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prototype wrote:
Anyway, since I am somewhat of a hobby expert on this: Chang Hon/ITF TKD has identical kicking techniques to Tang Soo Do, KKW, has both the traditional variation of kicking technqiues, and modernized sparring variation. The differences beyond that is some kung fu animal element in in TSD which TKD left behind.

Katas are also different. TSD uses Shotokan katas plus a few kung fu ones, TKD has it's own stuff.


The biggest issue in trying to point out differences is that there are a good deal of differences between the different TKD styles, and TSD styles within themselves. It's hard to be braud in this area. My TSD looks a good deal different then a popular variation like "world TSD federation" for example, as my lineage I was able to trace down after not knowing actually, to Moo Duk Kwan. This is why my "version" of TSD was so similar to Soo Bahk Do. One example of this would be the front snap kick, mine is done similar to an MMA push kick, so again, hard to be general in the differences between TSD and TKD.
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JazzKicker
Orange Belt
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Joined: 07 Aug 2017
Posts: 128
Location: NJ
Styles: JKD, TSD, MMA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if you want to compare TKD, TSD, and even lump Shotokan in there, nevermind the specifics of forms, look at how people actually move. Look at how kicks are executed, fighting stances, timing. Video would be a great way to contrast.
If you looked at a book from the past, like Richard Chun's book on Mood Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do, Hwang Kee's book on TSD, or Funakoshi's Karate-Do Kyohan, a side kick would look pretty much the same. But if you went on YouTube and looked at an Oly TKD, TSD, or Shotokan person, their side kicks would all look very different, dynamically.
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Luther unleashed
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Joined: 30 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JazzKicker wrote:
I think if you want to compare TKD, TSD, and even lump Shotokan in there, nevermind the specifics of forms, look at how people actually move. Look at how kicks are executed, fighting stances, timing. Video would be a great way to contrast.
If you looked at a book from the past, like Richard Chun's book on Mood Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do, Hwang Kee's book on TSD, or Funakoshi's Karate-Do Kyohan, a side kick would look pretty much the same. But if you went on YouTube and looked at an Oly TKD, TSD, or Shotokan person, their side kicks would all look very different, dynamically.


See but even that is very subjective, saying that those 3 styles practitioners would look different. This is mainly because I can show you 3 different Tamg soo Do organizations that teach differently, and the same for Tae Kwon Do. Shotokan in particular seems to be pretty close across the board from what I have seen, but either way I agree that your statement about the older stuff being more the same. As time went on though, people separated (mostly through federations) and styles took turns and became different working themselves.

This is why I believe differently then most traditional guys, I feel sticking with one style is not so important, because even many styles aren't the same as it is. I study primarily Tang Soo Do, but mix training in different styles and techniques often. It's because of this I feel I have a decently open mind about styles and can speak subjectivity about them... most of the time anyways.
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Prototype
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="DWx"]
Prototype wrote:


Out of the two, I still think ITF is closer to Shotokan kata than the Kukkiwon equivalents. They essentially just copied and pasted them and added a TKD twist. Loads of examples of this:]


I think you would be well adviced to go over the Shotokan Katas again, because the Kukkiwon copied and pasted them as well.
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DWx
KF Sensei
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6148
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prototype wrote:
DWx wrote:

Out of the two, I still think ITF is closer to Shotokan kata than the Kukkiwon equivalents. They essentially just copied and pasted them and added a TKD twist. Loads of examples of this:]


I think you would be well adviced to go over the Shotokan Katas again, because the Kukkiwon copied and pasted them as well.

I've never studied the Kukkiwon poomse so maybe I don't know. Can you give an example?

With the Chang Hon forms there are direct comparisons, e.g. Heian Nidan and Won Hyo. Can you give an example of a Kukkiwon form which matches a Shotokan kata?
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Luther unleashed
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Joined: 30 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Prototype"]
DWx wrote:
Prototype wrote:


Out of the two, I still think ITF is closer to Shotokan kata than the Kukkiwon equivalents. They essentially just copied and pasted them and added a TKD twist. Loads of examples of this:]


I think you would be well adviced to go over the Shotokan Katas again, because the Kukkiwon copied and pasted them as well.


When I studied WTF Tae Kwon Do, I was given the option when testing to pay extra to be recognized by Kukkiwon. Some may question my ranks validity but At the time I didn't care and was broke so I didn't. I cared about what I was learning and "I" recognized it so what was the difference?

Anyways I earned a green belt. If your referring to KKW forms as in WTF forms I can't imagine any similarities, but I'm not. 3rd dan either. I too am curious what your referring too. Never been the best with history, but I have practiced a pretty broad range of arts/systems.
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
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Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Luther unleashed"]
Prototype wrote:
DWx wrote:
Prototype wrote:


Out of the two, I still think ITF is closer to Shotokan kata than the Kukkiwon equivalents. They essentially just copied and pasted them and added a TKD twist. Loads of examples of this:]


I think you would be well adviced to go over the Shotokan Katas again, because the Kukkiwon copied and pasted them as well.


When I studied WTF Tae Kwon Do, I was given the option when testing to pay extra to be recognized by Kukkiwon. Some may question my ranks validity but At the time I didn't care and was broke so I didn't. I cared about what I was learning and "I" recognized it so what was the difference?

Anyways I earned a green belt. If your referring to KKW forms as in WTF forms I can't imagine any similarities, but I'm not. 3rd dan either. I too am curious what your referring too. Never been the best with history, but I have practiced a pretty broad range of arts/systems.


Thanks for mentioning the cost of the Kikkiwon. Our master instructor chose not to deal with them, either. He's teaching martial arts for 2 primary reasons:

a) He loves it and is not trying to make money (I'm pretty sure he loses money each year.)
b) He feels it's important to be able to defend yourself, if ever necessary. This is how he defines a black belt in our school (which takes 5 years, minimum) - "If you earn your black belt in my school, that means I'm confident that you'll be able to effectively defend yourself against a lone, unarmed attacker."

I believe we are recognized by WTF, or WT, but I personally couldn't care less if we're Kikkiwon-certified.
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Prototype
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Joined: 15 Dec 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
Prototype wrote:
DWx wrote:

Out of the two, I still think ITF is closer to Shotokan kata than the Kukkiwon equivalents. They essentially just copied and pasted them and added a TKD twist. Loads of examples of this:]


I think you would be well adviced to go over the Shotokan Katas again, because the Kukkiwon copied and pasted them as well.

I've never studied the Kukkiwon poomse so maybe I don't know. Can you give an example?

With the Chang Hon forms there are direct comparisons, e.g. Heian Nidan and Won Hyo. Can you give an example of a Kukkiwon form which matches a Shotokan kata?


All Heian forms are present in the tageuk coloured patterns, just like the ITF. They switched move orders and techniques, that's all. If there's a knee in the Shotokan Kata, there might be a front kick instead, and vice versa.
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