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Luther unleashed
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prototype wrote:
DWx wrote:
Prototype wrote:
DWx wrote:

Out of the two, I still think ITF is closer to Shotokan kata than the Kukkiwon equivalents. They essentially just copied and pasted them and added a TKD twist. Loads of examples of this:]


I think you would be well adviced to go over the Shotokan Katas again, because the Kukkiwon copied and pasted them as well.

I've never studied the Kukkiwon poomse so maybe I don't know. Can you give an example?

With the Chang Hon forms there are direct comparisons, e.g. Heian Nidan and Won Hyo. Can you give an example of a Kukkiwon form which matches a Shotokan kata?


All Heian forms are present in the tageuk coloured patterns, just like the ITF. They switched move orders and techniques, that's all. If there's a knee in the Shotokan Kata, there might be a front kick instead, and vice versa.


Just because there is a high block or low block in a form does not make it the same as a Shotokan form. I have studied Taegeuk forms and I am a 2nd dan in a Tang Soo Do based System (recently promoted) which are directly taken from the Shotokan Heian forms. I canít se ANYTHING the same with WTF forms and would feel extremely confident saying they are NOT the same, not because there are small differences as you mentioned, but because there are only small similarities.
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Luther unleashed
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heian form 1
https://youtu.be/9D2yOzDsW8k

Taeguek form 1
https://youtu.be/EsHoF3xKpBs

Very different!
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DWx
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luther unleashed wrote:
Heian form 1
https://youtu.be/9D2yOzDsW8k

Taeguek form 1
https://youtu.be/EsHoF3xKpBs

Very different!

Brian started up a very good thread looking at similarities and differences:
https://www.karateforums.com/tkd-forms-a-running-comparison-vt47646.html
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Luther unleashed
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
Luther unleashed wrote:
Heian form 1
https://youtu.be/9D2yOzDsW8k

Taeguek form 1
https://youtu.be/EsHoF3xKpBs

Very different!

Brian started up a very good thread looking at similarities and differences:
https://www.karateforums.com/tkd-forms-a-running-comparison-vt47646.html


Thanks, I checked it out, I actually see I posted on it. In reading my last post it appears my view has not really changed on the matter.

I have conversed with you on a few occasions about the history of things and it is clear you know more than me about it because that isnít an area that excites me to understand. Judging by the history one may say that it comes from something, but from what I see whether it originally came from a particular style or not it has clearly deviated from that system a great deal.

Applications that can be used, even the muscles being used are very different. In fact Tae Kwon Do in my experience has always focused much less on applications in general as it is.

Just more spouting off on these topics lol.
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Prototype
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The WTF kept more hand techniques intact compared to the ITF. Choi made small changes to most of them, also later implemented Sine Wave.

The WTF kept the karate hip-twist, the blocks, etc
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Prototype
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luther unleashed wrote:
Heian form 1
https://youtu.be/9D2yOzDsW8k

Taeguek form 1
https://youtu.be/EsHoF3xKpBs

Very different!


That is only one type of walking stance for punches and blocks. There is also a lower stance prevalent in later forms identical to the Shotokan one.

Nice try.
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Luther unleashed
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prototype wrote:
Luther unleashed wrote:
Heian form 1
https://youtu.be/9D2yOzDsW8k

Taeguek form 1
https://youtu.be/EsHoF3xKpBs

Very different!


That is only one type of walking stance for punches and blocks. There is also a lower stance prevalent in later forms identical to the Shotokan one.

Nice try.


I like the nice try at the end there lol. I simply took the most basic form from Each.

The patterns are not the same, the techniques are not the same, the stances are not the same, yes in some forms a traditional front stance which is prevalent in most traditional martial arts is present. I would prefer if you presented me with some type of facts showing how these patterns and techniques are the same.
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Luther unleashed
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please reference this Tang Soo Do form with the form I posted from Shotokan. You will see that it clearly derived from the Shotokan form sir. Iím always open for these topics but please help me to understand the same for the WTF forms. Thanks.

Tang Soo Do ďPyong Ahn Cho Dan
https://youtu.be/WugmWPHYYJg
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the older WTF forms, the Pal Gwe forms, were much closer to the Shotokan origin, but as time went on, the WTF made a very visible effort to differentiate what they did from Shotokan, and so the newer forms were designed and they moved forward from there, and also focused on the differences in sparring.
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Luther unleashed
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
I think the older WTF forms, the Pal Gwe forms, were much closer to the Shotokan origin, but as time went on, the WTF made a very visible effort to differentiate what they did from Shotokan, and so the newer forms were designed and they moved forward from there, and also focused on the differences in sparring.


Good to see you buddy.

I donít know old WTF BUT the argument on my end is referring to the specific forms mentioned, Taeguek if I understood right! I have studied those, and WTF under black belt. No matter where it originated from itís clearly bread into its own thing, and I canít see any Shotokan. I have never practiced Shotokan exclusively however I do understand the history of Tang Soo ado and the undeniable connection of our forms to Shotokan.

WTF TKD does not have those undeniable similarities, although as I said I lack the knowledge of the WTFís specific history. Regardless, as you said it has clearly evolved differently.
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