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neoravencroft
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:55 am    Post subject: Differences in TKD and TSD Reply with quote

From the Korean MA experts here, can someone here tell me what the real difference between Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do is? From what I read, the only difference that I read is that TSD has more punches.
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DWx
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to be pedantic but it depends on what TKD you are talking about and to which branch of TSD you are comparing it to.

They have a common root and were developed around the same time. In fact in the early days "Tang Soo Do" was the name used by everyone as it was the Korean pronunciation of "Karate-do" (China hand, 唐手道). The term "Kong Soo Do" (Karate-do written as "empty hand", 空手道) was also used to a lesser extent.

I've never studied TSD so can't comment as to the technical differences but for a bit of background, I wrote this on another thread which should give you an idea on the history:

DWx wrote:

What we now know as Tae Kwon Do was originally called Tang Soo Do, only Hwang Kee kept the original name for his style.

The short version of it:

After the Korean occupation 5 schools arose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwan

Song Moo Kwan
Chung Do Kwan
Moo Duk Kwan
Chang Moo Kwan
Jidokwan

Each teaching their own brand of martial arts which they'd learnt in Japan or China. As most were teaching a form of Shotokan or Shudokan, they simply called their arts Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do as these are the Korean pronunciations of Karate-Do. In the 1960's, I forget the actual date, they were encouraged to work together and unify under a single name hence they all came together under the banner "Tae Kwon Do" in 1965.

Moo Duk Kwan kept the Tang Soo Do name and continued to develop on its own.

The Oh Do Kwan which was born out the Chung Do Kwan eventually left and has become what we now know as ITF Taekwon-Do.

The rest of the groups formed the WTF.

Slightly longer version: http://www.taekwondo-guide.com/Taekwondo-History.html

So yes they are different styles now but once upon a time all went by the "Karate-Do" name.

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neoravencroft
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweet! Thanks for the post. This will be a good starting point.

DWx wrote:
Not to be pedantic but it depends on what TKD you are talking about and to which branch of TSD you are comparing it to.

They have a common root and were developed around the same time. In fact in the early days "Tang Soo Do" was the name used by everyone as it was the Korean pronunciation of "Karate-do" (China hand, 唐手道). The term "Kong Soo Do" (Karate-do written as "empty hand", 空手道) was also used to a lesser extent.

I've never studied TSD so can't comment as to the technical differences but for a bit of background, I wrote this on another thread which should give you an idea on the history:

DWx wrote:

What we now know as Tae Kwon Do was originally called Tang Soo Do, only Hwang Kee kept the original name for his style.

The short version of it:

After the Korean occupation 5 schools arose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwan

Song Moo Kwan
Chung Do Kwan
Moo Duk Kwan
Chang Moo Kwan
Jidokwan

Each teaching their own brand of martial arts which they'd learnt in Japan or China. As most were teaching a form of Shotokan or Shudokan, they simply called their arts Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do as these are the Korean pronunciations of Karate-Do. In the 1960's, I forget the actual date, they were encouraged to work together and unify under a single name hence they all came together under the banner "Tae Kwon Do" in 1965.

Moo Duk Kwan kept the Tang Soo Do name and continued to develop on its own.

The Oh Do Kwan which was born out the Chung Do Kwan eventually left and has become what we now know as ITF Taekwon-Do.

The rest of the groups formed the WTF.

Slightly longer version: http://www.taekwondo-guide.com/Taekwondo-History.html

So yes they are different styles now but once upon a time all went by the "Karate-Do" name.

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Luther unleashed
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are very dofferent in the sense that the exact way of executing techniques is not the same. They are very different in philosophy in the sense that, as you stated, there are less kicks because the philosophy does npt place such importance on kicking. They are different in the aspect of forms, as they do not have the same forms. In fact, even the name used for forms is different, TKD says "poomse" and TSD says "hyung"! Tang Soo Do is. Korean varient o Shotokan Karate. In the ways that Shotokan is similar to Tang Soo Do, so is it similar to TKD.

Compare TKD to Shotokan and then wing chun or hung gar kung fu and and you will see the style of larate itself is aimilar to these korean arts, but in a broad and general way, many specifics and details are different. Another difference is that in MANY TKD place now days the sport aspect is more prominent, in american martial arts in beneral this is true but TKD more so. Yes, TKD has self defense as an aspect bit typically many achools focus on the show and look of the moves rather then the direct effectiveness, in TSD ot is usually much less popular in the sport aspect. Not all, but most. Now, i dont get much into history of martial arts because in many cases it's inaccurate and stories vary, but what stands today is they are more different when you get down to the details then they are the same IMHO! Lastly i have a foreign exchange student who lives with us who is from korea. She has trained in Taekwondo for a short time but has never even heard of Tang Soo Do, so the popularity is another big difference.

May i ask what raises this question for you?
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luther unleashed wrote:
They are different in the aspect of forms, as they do not have the same forms. In fact, even the name used for forms is different, TKD says "poomse" and TSD says "hyung"!


This jumped out at me. In my TKD schools, we call our forms hyungs instead of poomsae or tuls. At times, it just depends on where your instructors came from.

I would say this about the difference between TKD and TSD. They both generated mainly from Shotokan, and branched out from there. TKD was grabbed onto by a group of Korean instructors/school owners/black belts that wanted their style, their TKD, to be different than the Japanese style of Shotokan (for political and cultural reasons), so TKD began to change more and more. TSD didn't follow along that route, so it tends to look closer to what Shotokan does. ITF TKD looks different from TSD, but more similar to Shotokan than does styles that moved further and further away, like WTF TKD and ATA TKD.
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IcemanSK
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Luther unleashed wrote:
They are different in the aspect of forms, as they do not have the same forms. In fact, even the name used for forms is different, TKD says "poomse" and TSD says "hyung"!


This jumped out at me. In my TKD schools, we call our forms hyungs instead of poomsae or tuls. At times, it just depends on where your instructors came from.

I would say this about the difference between TKD and TSD. They both generated mainly from Shotokan, and branched out from there. TKD was grabbed onto by a group of Korean instructors/school owners/black belts that wanted their style, their TKD, to be different than the Japanese style of Shotokan (for political and cultural reasons), so TKD began to change more and more. TSD didn't follow along that route, so it tends to look closer to what Shotokan does. ITF TKD looks different from TSD, but more similar to Shotokan than does styles that moved further and further away, like WTF TKD and ATA TKD.


Where one's instructor came from, with whom they studied, what they decided to keep or leave behind from how their instructor taught, are huge factors in how different a TSD school is from a TKD school down the road. I know several TKD schools in my area (So. California) who are Moo Duk Kwan schools, but are very strongly Kukkiwon style schools as well. Their lineage is MDK, but they don't identify with TSD in any way. I also know a Oh Do Kwan TKD school that is not in any way affiliated with Chang Hon TKD. They too are Kukkiwon TKD.

Even with Kukki-TKD terminology has changed over the years, as has the poomsae themselves. When I started in the early 80s, we called them hyungs. Later, the term poomsae became the term to use. By the middle 90s, if a student used the term hyung, we just assumed her/his master was an older person & current with the new terms.
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Luther unleashed
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would agree with the itf looking more like shotokan bushido. I have studfied a small amount of itf tkd and more of wtf. Wtf to me, resembles nothing of what i do in tsd though. I have never heard a tkd school say hyung though thats interesting.

The history gets too messy for me but in my experience in tkd, and the students I teach that were tkd prior to me, have many differences in many ways. Just my experience going back to 93, and I inderstand others have different experiences.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luther unleashed wrote:
I would agree with the itf looking more like shotokan bushido. I have studfied a small amount of itf tkd and more of wtf. Wtf to me, resembles nothing of what i do in tsd though. I have never heard a tkd school say hyung though thats interesting.


I would say of the TKD styles out there, the WTF has done the most work of tying to make TKD stand out more from Shotokan and its Karate roots. This is easily seen in the progression of its form/poomsae syllabus over the years, but even more so in its approach to changing how sparring was done.

I think that the pioneers that were still around in the WTF when the Olympic TKD dream finally came true probably felt that they had finally made TKD what they wanted it to be when contrasted with Shotokan.
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Prototype
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Luther unleashed wrote:
I would agree with the itf looking more like shotokan bushido. I have studfied a small amount of itf tkd and more of wtf. Wtf to me, resembles nothing of what i do in tsd though. I have never heard a tkd school say hyung though thats interesting.


I would say of the TKD styles out there, the WTF has done the most work of tying to make TKD stand out more from Shotokan and its Karate roots. This is easily seen in the progression of its form/poomsae syllabus over the years.


Although performed differently, many of the poomsae (pattern) techniques in WTF are the same as in Shotokan but not in ITF. So based on the patterns, it's closer to Shotokan than ITF. Basically Everything has been modified in ITF patterns and the black belt patterns are much more extravagant (plenty of aerial kicks) compared to the ultra conservative WTF/KKW and Shotokan katas.
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DWx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prototype wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
Luther unleashed wrote:
I would agree with the itf looking more like shotokan bushido. I have studfied a small amount of itf tkd and more of wtf. Wtf to me, resembles nothing of what i do in tsd though. I have never heard a tkd school say hyung though thats interesting.


I would say of the TKD styles out there, the WTF has done the most work of tying to make TKD stand out more from Shotokan and its Karate roots. This is easily seen in the progression of its form/poomsae syllabus over the years.


Although performed differently, many of the poomsae (pattern) techniques in WTF are the same as in Shotokan but not in ITF. So based on the patterns, it's closer to Shotokan than ITF. Basically Everything has been modified in ITF patterns and the black belt patterns are much more extravagant (plenty of aerial kicks) compared to the ultra conservative WTF/KKW and Shotokan katas.

I think I would actually say ITF patterns are much closer to Shotokan than the WTF ones, check out this thread where we've been comparing them: http://www.karateforums.com/tkd-forms-a-running-comparison-vt47646.html

Excluding Juche and Moon Moo, the kicking in ITF patterns seems no more more extravagant than WTF poomse. Koryo is pretty flashy when it comes to kicks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH2wQsAUVwY
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