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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14492
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:31 pm    Post subject: Discerning Knowledge Reply with quote

It's widely accepted that...

"Discernment is a term used to describe the activity of determining the value and quality of a certain subject or event. Typically, it is used to describe the activity of going past the mere perception of something, to making detailed judgments about that thing. As a virtue, a discerning individual is considered to possess wisdom, and be of good judgement; especially so with regard to subject matter often overlooked by others."

Could wisdom be part of knowledge?

Knowledge/experience is considered by many MAists that rank is nothing without knowledge/experience, and in that, rank by itself is an empty shell.

Value of ones knowledge must be valuable to those who are subjected to it, and in that, there must be quality of what's presented.

Pertaining to the subject of the MA...
*Does only a black belt have those abilities?
*Does only a Sensei have those abilities?
*Do only high ranking MAists have those abilities?
*Do those under black belt have those abilities?

How do you discern knowledge?

Any thoughts?


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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think knowledge is learning. Application must follow. Application of knowledge will lead to experiences gained. Experiences are evaluated, and then the process should start again.
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Newdesign
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Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Posts: 18


PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think knowledge is part of wisdom. Like Einstein has said, "information is not knowledge". But when you truly understand something comprehensively, it becomes knowledge. To really understand something requires wisdom. Knowledge is something one can have on some specific things, but not everything. Then again, wisdom, is something that shows in the person, in everything he does.

To have those abilities does not require you to have a black belt, since it is simply material, which some get sooner some later. And it does not proof knowledge, wisdom, or anything at all. It is mostly about the individual. There is no certain point when you reach something that is not concrete.

I have to mention here the psychological findings about the fact that some people (Which in fact is pretty high number, can't remember how much, but it isn't on any way extraordinary) will never start to think on many-sided/creative ways. Some people simply ether don't have the biological capability or have not in their childhood had a proper environment to achieve such level on thinking and creativity. This has a lot to do with what is often considered knowledge and wisdom.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
*Does only a black belt have those abilities?

No. However, a black belts abilities are more than a kyu level for a simple reason...TENURE on the floor over that of a kyu level.

Quote:
*Does only a Sensei have those abilities?

No. However, a Sensei's abilities are more than of their students for a simple reason...TENURE on the floor over that of their students.

Quote:
*Do only high ranking MAists have those abilities?

No. However, a high ranking MAists abilities are more than lower Dan ranked for a simple reason...TENURE on the floor over lower Dan ranks.

Quote:
*Do those under black belt have those abilities?

Yes. However, those kyu ranks won't have as much as those mentioned above for a simple reason...TENURE on the floor WITH those proven MAists.

Providing that effective training was adhered to across the board on the floor! Respect is earned, and that includes TENURE on the floor. Proven tenure earns the respect of those who are reaching for those AHA moments.

Your thoughts?


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Zaine
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1660
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Mantis, Schola Saint George (Fiorian sword fighting)

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer an earlier question, wisdom is not a part of knowledge. The knowledgeable aren't necessarily wise but the wise are knowledgeable. It's not necessarily the tenure that decides who has better discernment. I've seen white belts with better discernment than their teacher. Rank generally is, however, a very good indicator of who is going to be better but it really depends on the person. For some people it doesn't click, and you'll find that, more often than not, the people who are purely physical about their martial arts are awful at discernment, whereas those who take time to focus on the spiritual and intellectual side of martial arts excel at it.
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sensei8
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
To answer an earlier question, wisdom is not a part of knowledge. The knowledgeable aren't necessarily wise but the wise are knowledgeable. It's not necessarily the tenure that decides who has better discernment. I've seen white belts with better discernment than their teacher. Rank generally is, however, a very good indicator of who is going to be better but it really depends on the person. For some people it doesn't click, and you'll find that, more often than not, the people who are purely physical about their martial arts are awful at discernment, whereas those who take time to focus on the spiritual and intellectual side of martial arts excel at it.

In the bold type above, the underline seems to contradict your statement. "...the wise are knowledgeable" and if the wise ARE knowledgeable, then wisdom IS part of knowledge and knowledge IS part of wisdom.

White belts with better discernment than their own teacher regarding things of their martial arts and/or their style? I'd run from that school fast and far. Tenure, imho, means everything in discernment because the longer I do something, providing I'm doing it effectively, the easier it is for me to discern that which is before me.

No matter the physicality or the spiritual/intellectual how one approaches their MA, their discernment is moment appropriate for them, and if it works for them, then it's wrong for me to imply that their wrong. On the other hand, I do see that one with the physicality approach might rush in headstrong without thinking about any consequences. Whereas, one who approach it in a spiritual/intellectual will consider the possible consequences before rushing in, but to over think something can cloud up the most simple situation.

Imho.


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Zaine
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Knowledge is part of wisdom but wisdom is not part of knowledge. Think about it, every wise person who I've met is usually quite knowledgeable, but the reverse does not always hold true. Knowledge is what we know, the hard facts, whereas Wisdom is the application of that knowledge to our lives.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I drop a hammer on my foot, wisdom tells me that I shouldn't do that and that's because I've the knowledge that when I did that before...it hurt a lot.

Without wisdom being a part of my knowledge, my poor foot is in a heap of trouble.

I don't think the two can be separated without one suffering the consequences.


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Zaine
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1660
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Mantis, Schola Saint George (Fiorian sword fighting)

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right, there are consequences for those who are knowledgeable but not wise and some people do face those consequences.

I really don't think avoiding pain is a sign of wisdom though. Just self preservation.
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bushido_man96
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Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And not everyone has to drop a hammer on their foot before they realize its going to hurt. Learning through cause and effect is one thing, but not all learning has to be done that way.
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