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stonecrusher69
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 771
Location: New Jersey
Styles: MCM WING CHUN

PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:33 pm    Post subject: Discussion on wing chun internal training Reply with quote

My own person take on Wing Chun internal training and what it is and how to train it..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN4DSYJ1Z2E
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2204


PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stonecrusher69 wrote:
My own person take on Wing Chun internal training and what it is and how to train it..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN4DSYJ1Z2E
Thanks again for sharing your views and comments on (this video) Wing Chun that are always appreciate.

Hope it is OK for my personal input on this subject as well?

Internal martial art training (In this case with Wing Chun) must be the most difficult aspect to understand.

My Wing Chun teacher's Sifu from the Ip Man lineage, constantly told him that he needs to practice smiling.

As my teacher was very serious and tense most of the time.

Chi doesn't flow around the body easily when muscles are tense. This is why a more relaxed atmosphere is encouraged during a Wing Chun class. This relaxed way starts from thoughts, with the Sil Lum Tao, small thoughts.

As this 'Sil Lum Tao' form is practiced with the little ideas of each movement for the hands and arms only, while standing in a grounded stance.

The movements are not for choreographed fighting techniques (as in karate) but are used as body mechanic segments that develops muscle memory and coordination for internal training purposes.

Sil Lum Tao is also akin to doing Tai Chi as Wing Chun is also a Yin/Yang style.

Using the analogy of peddling a bicycle helps describe how the Yin/Yang principle works.

As in Tai Chi the flowing body and hand movements is possible, due to as one part or muscles tenses the opposing part relaxes; this tension and relaxing movements in Wing Chun' Sil Lum Tao is isolated to the three joints of the wrist, elbow and shoulder; also included are all of the finger joints.

The coordination practice for synchronizing these three joints needs to become second nature for instantaneous attacking and defence porpoises; 'Sil Lum Tao' promotes this little idea also.

At this point with the 'Sil Lum Tao' it is a way to develops good body structure and form, practiced on a boat that is slightly rocking will add the propreceptive aspects of stability and balance, that can be simulated on dry land, while standing on a rocking board or on a large Yoga exercise plastic ball.

As in Tai Chi forms and Wing Chun's Sil Lum Tao, it can take as long as three months of daily practice to start to feel the 'Chi Flow' circulating around the body; this is the first part or stage of recognizing your own energy flow and later on you will be able to recognize and control your opponent's also; the bonus is to be able to differentiate your energy from the opponent's that is practiced with 'Chi Sao' that is called (it is not the literal meaning) sticky hands.

Would be a good moment to point out that 'Chi' means energy and 'Sao' means hand.

'Jing' means how energy 'Chi' is used. Such as pushing or pulling, twisting or bouncing and the list goes on... spiraling or pressing...

Sil Lum Tao practices the energies of these different 'Jings' throughout the form and coordinating these energies seamlessly in to one continuous flow; without hesitations!

So when it comes down to practicing the Sil Lum Tao, from start to finish, if done well, you should feel and keep all of the different 'Jings' flowing effortlessly from one to another.

Chi is like creating internal energy fuel that works only in your human combustion martial art engine and all the Jings need Chi otherwise they don't work, alot like a toy that needs batteries to work.

Chi is the energy that powers the Jings that creates Chi; a cycle.

To practice 'Sil Lum Tao' slowly is recommend because firstly it's not a race of speed but more of a way to feel the differences of the energy flows within the form and keeping them all connected, so when you see someone doing this particular form fast, "feel" confident that they are doing it incorrectly; for demonstration purposes it is displayed fast to look more like a fighting style and less similar to Tai Chi Chuan.

Sil Lum Tao, translation, the little idea. It starts out as a little idea like an acorn seed. That once planted continues to grow with more little ideas. With the idea of "Ohh that makes sense" "Ohh I like that move" that should be happening to you. With more practice more little ideas are unlocked and improvements gradually rise to your consciousness.

Sil Lum Tao has small differences in movements fom one lineage to another lineage, this I not important, what is important is the keep practicing and trying to understand all the theories also to learn the applications that are related to it.

Sil Lum Tao can be practiced standing on one foot or practiced blindfolded or even practiced in reverse, with the idea that power comes from your relaxed movements and not from tension.

Ultimately your movements will move natural from your "mind intent" and not from consciously moving muscles but from a relaxed state of mind.
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stonecrusher69
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 771
Location: New Jersey
Styles: MCM WING CHUN

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
stonecrusher69 wrote:
My own person take on Wing Chun internal training and what it is and how to train it..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN4DSYJ1Z2E
Thanks again for sharing your views and comments on (this video) Wing Chun that are always appreciate.

Hope it is OK for my personal input on this subject as well?

Internal martial art training (In this case with Wing Chun) must be the most difficult aspect to understand.

My Wing Chun teacher's Sifu from the Ip Man lineage, constantly told him that he needs to practice smiling.

As my teacher was very serious and tense most of the time.

Chi doesn't flow around the body easily when muscles are tense. This is why a more relaxed atmosphere is encouraged during a Wing Chun class. This relaxed way starts from thoughts, with the Sil Lum Tao, small thoughts.

As this 'Sil Lum Tao' form is practiced with the little ideas of each movement for the hands and arms only, while standing in a grounded stance.

The movements are not for choreographed fighting techniques (as in karate) but are used as body mechanic segments that develops muscle memory and coordination for internal training purposes.

Sil Lum Tao is also akin to doing Tai Chi as Wing Chun is also a Yin/Yang style.

Using the analogy of peddling a bicycle helps describe how the Yin/Yang principle works.

As in Tai Chi the flowing body and hand movements is possible, due to as one part or muscles tenses the opposing part relaxes; this tension and relaxing movements in Wing Chun' Sil Lum Tao is isolated to the three joints of the wrist, elbow and shoulder; also included are all of the finger joints.

The coordination practice for synchronizing these three joints needs to become second nature for instantaneous attacking and defence porpoises; 'Sil Lum Tao' promotes this little idea also.

At this point with the 'Sil Lum Tao' it is a way to develops good body structure and form, practiced on a boat that is slightly rocking will add the propreceptive aspects of stability and balance, that can be simulated on dry land, while standing on a rocking board or on a large Yoga exercise plastic ball.

As in Tai Chi forms and Wing Chun's Sil Lum Tao, it can take as long as three months of daily practice to start to feel the 'Chi Flow' circulating around the body; this is the first part or stage of recognizing your own energy flow and later on you will be able to recognize and control your opponent's also; the bonus is to be able to differentiate your energy from the opponent's that is practiced with 'Chi Sao' that is called (it is not the literal meaning) sticky hands.

Would be a good moment to point out that 'Chi' means energy and 'Sao' means hand.

'Jing' means how energy 'Chi' is used. Such as pushing or pulling, twisting or bouncing and the list goes on... spiraling or pressing...

Sil Lum Tao practices the energies of these different 'Jings' throughout the form and coordinating these energies seamlessly in to one continuous flow; without hesitations!

So when it comes down to practicing the Sil Lum Tao, from start to finish, if done well, you should feel and keep all of the different 'Jings' flowing effortlessly from one to another.

Chi is like creating internal energy fuel that works only in your human combustion martial art engine and all the Jings need Chi otherwise they don't work, alot like a toy that needs batteries to work.

Chi is the energy that powers the Jings that creates Chi; a cycle.

To practice 'Sil Lum Tao' slowly is recommend because firstly it's not a race of speed but more of a way to feel the differences of the energy flows within the form and keeping them all connected, so when you see someone doing this particular form fast, "feel" confident that they are doing it incorrectly; for demonstration purposes it is displayed fast to look more like a fighting style and less similar to Tai Chi Chuan.

Sil Lum Tao, translation, the little idea. It starts out as a little idea like an acorn seed. That once planted continues to grow with more little ideas. With the idea of "Ohh that makes sense" "Ohh I like that move" that should be happening to you. With more practice more little ideas are unlocked and improvements gradually rise to your consciousness.

Sil Lum Tao has small differences in movements fom one lineage to another lineage, this I not important, what is important is the keep practicing and trying to understand all the theories also to learn the applications that are related to it.

Sil Lum Tao can be practiced standing on one foot or practiced blindfolded or even practiced in reverse, with the idea that power comes from your relaxed movements and not from tension.

Ultimately your movements will move natural from your "mind intent" and not from consciously moving muscles but from a relaxed state of mind.



Thanks Alan for your input..Internal aspects of training are hard to teach on a video..
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2204


PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi stonecrusher69

Internal wing Chun training.

Perhaps using a motoring analogy might help explain this aspect.

As the driver needs a connection with the road visually and also physically.

Developing a sensitivity through the steering wheel and the car suspension system.

The better connected this man/woman and machine become, the more skilled the driver is.

This connection isn't obvious like body building, the driver looks just the same before and after these skills are obtained.

As body building is an obvious exterior cause and effect, whereas internal type training is as if nothing has happened.

Internal isn't easy to measure whereas exterior is easy to measure.

This is why Wing Chun has been considered by those that have an exterior ruler to measure by, cannot measure it and call it an empty martial art.

As Wing Chun is a principle based system of combat difficult to measure in external terms as in the Western civilizations bigger, fast, further to reach the outer planets first, where in the East, inner space, micro technology, smaller is better.

Bruce Lee was tapping in to both the internal and external aspects of martial arts, making the most out of every molecule he had and died doing it, paying the ultimate price.

The internal martial arts is just as big as the external, the difference is one is seen and the other needs to be felt.

A sensual touch and how a race car driver feels the race track, both belong to the internal world, which is only touching on a far larger subject than can only be mentioned here.

Is it not the insensitivity in this world that could be improved upon to become more connected with what is worthwhile?

Internal medicine, natural medicine, reliving unnecessary stress and pain, learning how to relax, feeling good about oneself, are also connected to internal Wing Chun training and of course wanting to be like a race car driver.
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stonecrusher69
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 771
Location: New Jersey
Styles: MCM WING CHUN

PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Hi stonecrusher69

Internal wing Chun training.

Perhaps using a motoring analogy might help explain this aspect.

As the driver needs a connection with the road visually and also physically.

Developing a sensitivity through the steering wheel and the car suspension system.

The better connected this man/woman and machine become, the more skilled the driver is.

This connection isn't obvious like body building, the driver looks just the same before and after these skills are obtained.

As body building is an obvious exterior cause and effect, whereas internal type training is as if nothing has happened.

Internal isn't easy to measure whereas exterior is easy to measure.

This is why Wing Chun has been considered by those that have an exterior ruler to measure by, cannot measure it and call it an empty martial art.

As Wing Chun is a principle based system of combat difficult to measure in external terms as in the Western civilizations bigger, fast, further to reach the outer planets first, where in the East, inner space, micro technology, smaller is better.

Bruce Lee was tapping in to both the internal and external aspects of martial arts, making the most out of every molecule he had and died doing it, paying the ultimate price.

The internal martial arts is just as big as the external, the difference is one is seen and the other needs to be felt.

A sensual touch and how a race car driver feels the race track, both belong to the internal world, which is only touching on a far larger subject than can only be mentioned here.

Is it not the insensitivity in this world that could be improved upon to become more connected with what is worthwhile?

Internal medicine, natural medicine, reliving unnecessary stress and pain, learning how to relax, feeling good about oneself, are also connected to internal Wing Chun training and of course wanting to be like a race car driver.



This sums it up nicely..."The internal martial arts is just as big as the external, the difference is one is seen and the other needs to be felt. "
_________________
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"When the student is ready the master will appear"
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stonecrusher69
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 771
Location: New Jersey
Styles: MCM WING CHUN

PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Hi stonecrusher69

Internal wing Chun training.

Perhaps using a motoring analogy might help explain this aspect.

As the driver needs a connection with the road visually and also physically.

Developing a sensitivity through the steering wheel and the car suspension system.

The better connected this man/woman and machine become, the more skilled the driver is.

This connection isn't obvious like body building, the driver looks just the same before and after these skills are obtained.

As body building is an obvious exterior cause and effect, whereas internal type training is as if nothing has happened.

Internal isn't easy to measure whereas exterior is easy to measure.

This is why Wing Chun has been considered by those that have an exterior ruler to measure by, cannot measure it and call it an empty martial art.

As Wing Chun is a principle based system of combat difficult to measure in external terms as in the Western civilizations bigger, fast, further to reach the outer planets first, where in the East, inner space, micro technology, smaller is better.

Bruce Lee was tapping in to both the internal and external aspects of martial arts, making the most out of every molecule he had and died doing it, paying the ultimate price.

The internal martial arts is just as big as the external, the difference is one is seen and the other needs to be felt.

A sensual touch and how a race car driver feels the race track, both belong to the internal world, which is only touching on a far larger subject than can only be mentioned here.

Is it not the insensitivity in this world that could be improved upon to become more connected with what is worthwhile?

Internal medicine, natural medicine, reliving unnecessary stress and pain, learning how to relax, feeling good about oneself, are also connected to internal Wing Chun training and of course wanting to be like a race car driver.



This sums it up nicely..."The internal martial arts is just as big as the external, the difference is one is seen and the other needs to be felt. "
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/sifumcilwrath

"When the student is ready the master will appear"
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2204


PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One aspect of many, comes to mind when discussing the internal aspects of Wing Chun, which is relaxation.

As most people carry around with them, an abundance of tension, something that hinders movement, in Wing Chun unnecessary tension is dissolved with a little less seriousness when training.

In Wing Chun, relaxation is how speed is generated, an element Bruce Lee noticeably connected to his JKD.

This relaxed movement is also connected to what is called "The snake engine" whereas tendons, muscles and ligaments are free to elongate, when striking blows or when deflecting incoming attacks.

This relaxation factor is very useful to know when in a confrontation, as where many people become pumped up with tension, before a fight, the opposite is needed for a Wing Chun fighter.

This internal aspect is where Wing Chun can fail, if not fully understanding this relaxed ready state of being, which could be considered as the Yin aspect, interchangeably the Yang aspect is needed also to, make the strikes, kicks and blows to be strong and powerful; with a rooted stance when necessary, making full use of gravity.

As the lightness and fast aspects are Yin and the heavy aspects are Yang, when combined there is a heavy sinking element that can be used when making one's own body very heavy, also heavy handed blows are better initiated this way.

Not understanding this aspect is again where Wing Chun fails, in not knowing when to be light to move fast or when to make oneself heavy when needed; which is a type of way to make an interchangeable body structure, which maintains structural integrity, throughout the fight.

There is an intuitive element to this Yin/Yang interplay but is short lived, this is why fights usually end very quickly, as it takes practice to maintain this flow state for any length of time, without tiring or gasping for breath.

Internal Wing Chun practice on a wooden dummy, is a way to keep these Yin/Yang elements alive, without tiring, or gasping for air, because what might look like an external exercise is actually also an internal one.

Yin cannot survive without Yang, to fight like a soft rag doll or to be stiff like a puppet neither is a working system; but when combined the fighting balance is all there.

As people are soft compared to the wooden Wing Chun dummy which is hard, the correct method is not to strike it, on the contrary to massage it instead; this is where soft internal/Yin meets external/Yang; as be like water/soft and it will wear down the rock/hard.

This internal aspect of Wing Chun is also played out on an emotional level, knowing when to yield or walk away and when to fight.

Being in a neutral frame of mind and body is ready for anything; Wing Chun or Karate two different roads, that eventually meet at the same destination.
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