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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29040
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to KF, Oldschool_EugueRyu! I hope that someone is able to help you out with this. It seems to be rather obscure.
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Oldschool_EugueRyu
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 01 Dec 2020
Posts: 4
Location: Kansas City
Styles: Eugue Ryu

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, I know. The style isn't at all mainstream. I've tried for a long time to figure out where it fits on the spectrum of various karate styles.

Shito Ryu resembles our style the most, I think. There are still major differences, however. The movements and techniques seem very much like what I learned, but the kata are very slightly different, as are some of the techniques. Though it is minor things that stick out. For example, Shito Ryu does a lot more height variance in their kata, whereas our style, like Shotokan, teaches us to keep a uniform height.

I could pick apart other things as well. Our Pinan/Heian Shodan, for example, has a cat stance sweep + hammer fist + stomp an early section that I've seen in no other style.

Shito Ryu has something similar in the same section of the kata, but not at the same movement. They do a cat stance + hammer fist, but without the sweep in place of the first lower level block.

We in Eugue Ryu do it following the second. Retract from forward leaning stance to cat stance with a powerful inside sweep of the foot and deliver a stomp + hammer fist in a short circular motion.

Shotokan has a movement following the second lower level block that feels like the same thing we do.

In Shuri Ryu, you see a single-hand middle level block after the second lower level block.

Kyukushin has an inside block here after the second lower level block.

In many others, I find a kick at the end of the section.

I have seen Tang Soo Do do a break away following the second lower level block, drawing back into horse or cat stance with an a hammer fist either high or to the groin. Still no sweep, but they do shift into a stance very similarly to the way we do, and the hammer fist almost looks right. The sweep and stomp are missing, though. But they have the same circular motion, just larger and more exaggerated compared to the style I learned. In Eugue Ryu, we kept that movement crisp and compact. Very powerful punctuation to a gedan barai joint lock or throw. The sweep, I feel, is there to make sure they eat dirt in case they managed to stay up after being tossed around. Still, Tang Soo Do has the closest thing I've seen to this in the wild. Which kinda makes sense, since Ray Flowers picked up Eugue Ryu Karate in Korea. I have no doubt it picked up some influences there.

I've been wondering about this apparently volatile piece of the first Pinan/Heian kata and it's relation between different styles for a long time.

...

Actually, this sounds like it could make for a nice topic of it's own. If it hasn't already been done. xD Maybe I'll check later and repost as a general Karate question.

Still, I've seen no other style have the same combo Eugue Ryu does following that second block and this has led me to a lot of kata deconstruction on this particular set, basic as it might be!
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SLK59
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 05 Nov 2020
Posts: 94
Location: USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oldschool_EugueRyu wrote:
Right, I know. The style isn't at all mainstream. I've tried for a long time to figure out where it fits on the spectrum of various karate styles.


This online article may help shed a little light on the question: http://www.jukidokai.com/hombodojo/eugue-ryu-karatejutsu/
I am afraid that I cannot find any other online references to founder Kensenzu Yamaeugue.

Quote:
For example, Shito Ryu does a lot more height variance in their kata, whereas our style, like Shotokan, teaches us to keep a uniform height.


Actually, there are some height changes in the Shotokan Heian kata, although perhaps not as many as for some other styles.

Quote:
Shotokan has a movement following the second lower level block that feels like the same thing we do.


In both JKA and SKA Shotokan, this series of techniques is taught as a twisting escape from an opponent’s wrist grab, leading in a single motion to a circular bottom fist/hammer fist strike to the face. The techniques include a height change.

Quote:
I've been wondering about this apparently volatile piece of the first Pinan/Heian kata and it's relation between different styles for a long time.


The issue is rather complicated, with each of the styles interpreting and adapting these and other kata movements and their applications in different ways. This brief historical article on the Pinan/Heian kata in general may serve as a helpful starting point for further inquiry: https://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/brief-history-pinan-heian-katas

Best of luck in your continued training and research!

Cheers,
Scott
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Oldschool_EugueRyu
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 01 Dec 2020
Posts: 4
Location: Kansas City
Styles: Eugue Ryu

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SLK59 wrote:
This online article may help shed a little light on the question: http://www.jukidokai.com/hombodojo/eugue-ryu-karatejutsu/
I am afraid that I cannot find any other online references to founder Kensenzu Yamaeugue.

Thank you, yeah, I'm aware of this school. It is a few states away from me, so not really accessible. My dojo used to also have a site hosting this type of information, but it is long gone these days. Looks like it might be my only options to learn the Eugue Ryu unique kata again.


Quote:
Shotokan
SLK59 wrote:
has a movement following the second lower level block that feels like the same thing we do.


In both JKA and SKA Shotokan, this series of techniques is taught as a twisting escape from an opponent’s wrist grab, leading in a single motion to a circular bottom fist/hammer fist strike to the face. The techniques include a height change.

The grab break is definitely an application in Eugue Ryu, as well, though we don't change our height at all. The hammer fist is downward, though, ending around hip height, forearm parallel to the ground.


SLK59 wrote:
Quote:
I've been wondering about this apparently volatile piece of the first Pinan/Heian kata and it's relation between different styles for a long time.


The issue is rather complicated, with each of the styles interpreting and adapting these and other kata movements and their applications in different ways. This brief historical article on the Pinan/Heian kata in general may serve as a helpful starting point for further inquiry: https://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/brief-history-pinan-heian-katas

Very interesting! Didn't answer too many of my questions, aside from some of the Shodan/Nidan confusion, but still extremely interesting. Thank you for your time!

I still wonder why the technique in this spot has changed so much in the different styles but the rest has stayed relatively the same. Just super interesting to me! If anyone else has details on how their style handles this spot, please let me know!
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