Add KarateForums.com
Username:    Password:
Remember Me?    
   I Lost My Password!
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Weapons
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 See a User Guidelines violation? Press on the post.
Author Message

MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
Tempest wrote:
A pell is simply a target usable for practicing strikes that roughly simulates a human target. Pell or pel, is from the Latin for Palus, Palos, Palorum, a pale or stake. Most pells are a stake driven in to the ground, similar to some types of maki wara. A variety of drills can be used, but my favorite for beginners is to first, get a wooden waster, that is what you would likely call a bokken. Cover the center of percussion of the blade, that is the part of the edge that you should be aiming to strike with, in thick tape. No where else should be covered with this tape. Then have the student strike the pell with you watching. The tape on the blade will allow them to feel the difference between a good hit and a poor one. Then have the student strike the pell with the numbered cuts, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, without footwork, that is just from a basic stance in range, until they can strike 10 of each cut in a row on the tape. Then, start adding foot work, then distance, then moving around the pell, then combinations etc. The key is, blows that do not land in the center of percussion of the blade do NOT count. Also note, no where did I mention adding speed. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.


Thank you for the explanation. I find value in this and will actually be trying this out in training to see if this works. I appreciate this information.
I know that this month has been... hectic for you to say the least, but I would be interested in hearing what your results with the pell were if you get a chance.


If you've read any of my last few posts, you will hopefully not take what I say next as an insult or disrespect for the knowledge you have shared with me. I actually have not had the opportunity to delve into this with my students as of yet. I have however made a, weapons Makiwara, if you will but have not gotten around to actually employing it in actual practice.

I will being testing this with my students to see if it has favorable results as you have stated. No matter how it turns out I will definitely let you know. I appreciate your knowledge on this subject and hope you understand why I have not yet tried it. No disrespect was intended I can assure you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Tempest wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
Tempest wrote:
A pell is simply a target usable for practicing strikes that roughly simulates a human target. Pell or pel, is from the Latin for Palus, Palos, Palorum, a pale or stake. Most pells are a stake driven in to the ground, similar to some types of maki wara. A variety of drills can be used, but my favorite for beginners is to first, get a wooden waster, that is what you would likely call a bokken. Cover the center of percussion of the blade, that is the part of the edge that you should be aiming to strike with, in thick tape. No where else should be covered with this tape. Then have the student strike the pell with you watching. The tape on the blade will allow them to feel the difference between a good hit and a poor one. Then have the student strike the pell with the numbered cuts, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, without footwork, that is just from a basic stance in range, until they can strike 10 of each cut in a row on the tape. Then, start adding foot work, then distance, then moving around the pell, then combinations etc. The key is, blows that do not land in the center of percussion of the blade do NOT count. Also note, no where did I mention adding speed. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.


Thank you for the explanation. I find value in this and will actually be trying this out in training to see if this works. I appreciate this information.
I know that this month has been... hectic for you to say the least, but I would be interested in hearing what your results with the pell were if you get a chance.


If you've read any of my last few posts, you will hopefully not take what I say next as an insult or disrespect for the knowledge you have shared with me. I actually have not had the opportunity to delve into this with my students as of yet. I have however made a, weapons Makiwara, if you will but have not gotten around to actually employing it in actual practice.

I will being testing this with my students to see if it has favorable results as you have stated. No matter how it turns out I will definitely let you know. I appreciate your knowledge on this subject and hope you understand why I have not yet tried it. No disrespect was intended I can assure you.
None taken, I assure you. I actually asked partly as a way of getting you to talk about something a little less intense. I respect that you are willing to give it a try, and look forward to hearing about your experiences with it.
Please do not think I intend to badger you, I just thought that talking about hitting things would be more fun than what you have been dealing with recently.

_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been utilizing your method for a few weeks now and have formed an opinion based on my experience and that of my students experiences utilizing this.

I definitely find value in the practice. However I can not say that it will replace actual use but it most definitely will become a part of the learning process.

I have been utilizing this method a little more than my students and have found that the utilization of tape is a valuable tool in conditioning yourself to strike with the sweet spot of the weapon much the same as Tameshigiri teaches us to strike with the sword.

I do agree this is excellent for teaching distance on a moderate level but the one thing that I can not get around is the fact that it is stationary and as we all know the opponent is never stationary unless they are a beginner and even then they are moving to some extent.

I do get what you were saying about moving in and out and striking from different ranges but IMHO it does not replace actual combat in my mind.

I think the benefits learned with a partner far out way the stationary target.

Having said this and again, I am making it apart of the learning process and it definitely gives a good foundational understanding of distance to the student.

I appreciate the tips and advice. It has definitely panned out to be a value to our training.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Appreciate your feedback. My experiences mirror your own quite closely. It is not a substitute for partner drills or sparring, but it is a really good way to teach how and where to hit with a weapon without needing a partner or an unlimited supply of cutting medium. Now, for myself and my students, since we use mostly strait blades that are more suited to thrusting, once someone is competent in this drill the next step is point control drills. I am not sure how useful that would be to someone wielding a Katana as it is not a very thrust oriented sword, but I am glad you found value in this drill and appreciate your feedback.
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Appreciate your feedback. My experiences mirror your own quite closely. It is not a substitute for partner drills or sparring, but it is a really good way to teach how and where to hit with a weapon without needing a partner or an unlimited supply of cutting medium. Now, for myself and my students, since we use mostly strait blades that are more suited to thrusting, once someone is competent in this drill the next step is point control drills. I am not sure how useful that would be to someone wielding a Katana as it is not a very thrust oriented sword, but I am glad you found value in this drill and appreciate your feedback.


Actually the Katana is only utilized by me. I do not teach my students Iaido or Kenjutsu. Funny thing but the Katana can be and is utilized for thrusting, albeit a supported thrust. I have taken both of these arts but am not qualified to pass this on to my students so I do not teach this.

I teach them Kobudo which does have appropriate weapons for thrusting. Sai, Rokushaku, Techu, Rochin, Yari, Tonfua, Eku, and even the Kama can be use for thrusting. If you have examples of what you mean please do share them as I would appreciate another perspective. God knows I am not the end all to everything in weapons training. I'll take any advice I can get to improve and that will benefit my students training methods. Please share whatever advice you have. Thanks in advance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Tempest wrote:
Appreciate your feedback. My experiences mirror your own quite closely. It is not a substitute for partner drills or sparring, but it is a really good way to teach how and where to hit with a weapon without needing a partner or an unlimited supply of cutting medium. Now, for myself and my students, since we use mostly strait blades that are more suited to thrusting, once someone is competent in this drill the next step is point control drills. I am not sure how useful that would be to someone wielding a Katana as it is not a very thrust oriented sword, but I am glad you found value in this drill and appreciate your feedback.


Actually the Katana is only utilized by me. I do not teach my students Iaido or Kenjutsu. Funny thing but the Katana can be and is utilized for thrusting, albeit a supported thrust. I have taken both of these arts but am not qualified to pass this on to my students so I do not teach this.

I teach them Kobudo which does have appropriate weapons for thrusting. Sai, Rokushaku, Techu, Rochin, Yari, Tonfua, Eku, and even the Kama can be use for thrusting. If you have examples of what you mean please do share them as I would appreciate another perspective. God knows I am not the end all to everything in weapons training. I'll take any advice I can get to improve and that will benefit my students training methods. Please share whatever advice you have. Thanks in advance.
Sure. I appreciate your experience in these things. Point control drills are designed to fine tune control of the thrust so that you can strike a very small target with the point. In European martial arts this has 3 main purposes.
1. To be able to find the gaps in armor so that plate or mail will not turn the point.
2. To be able to strike smaller targets such as the hand or even a single finger.
3. To be able to move the point around defenses in such movements as the simple disengage.

Probably the most common point control drill that I teach is a partner drill.
1 partner will wield a blunt practice blade with a safe tip, or the equivalent.
The other partner will be unarmed.

Have the partners stand at such a distance that the armed partner can strike the outstretched hand of the unarmed partner with a thrust without footwork. Have them repeat this several times till they can consistently strike the outstretched palm. Then increase the distance to where footwork is required.

Then start moving the target. Have the unarmed partner put the hand in a different place each time.

Then, when they are getting pretty good at this, have the unarmed partner splay their hand and have the armed partner aim for particular fingers. Close the fingers once they are hit to make the target even smaller.
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
Tempest wrote:
Appreciate your feedback. My experiences mirror your own quite closely. It is not a substitute for partner drills or sparring, but it is a really good way to teach how and where to hit with a weapon without needing a partner or an unlimited supply of cutting medium. Now, for myself and my students, since we use mostly strait blades that are more suited to thrusting, once someone is competent in this drill the next step is point control drills. I am not sure how useful that would be to someone wielding a Katana as it is not a very thrust oriented sword, but I am glad you found value in this drill and appreciate your feedback.


Actually the Katana is only utilized by me. I do not teach my students Iaido or Kenjutsu. Funny thing but the Katana can be and is utilized for thrusting, albeit a supported thrust. I have taken both of these arts but am not qualified to pass this on to my students so I do not teach this.

I teach them Kobudo which does have appropriate weapons for thrusting. Sai, Rokushaku, Techu, Rochin, Yari, Tonfua, Eku, and even the Kama can be use for thrusting. If you have examples of what you mean please do share them as I would appreciate another perspective. God knows I am not the end all to everything in weapons training. I'll take any advice I can get to improve and that will benefit my students training methods. Please share whatever advice you have. Thanks in advance.
Sure. I appreciate your experience in these things. Point control drills are designed to fine tune control of the thrust so that you can strike a very small target with the point. In European martial arts this has 3 main purposes.
1. To be able to find the gaps in armor so that plate or mail will not turn the point.
2. To be able to strike smaller targets such as the hand or even a single finger.
3. To be able to move the point around defenses in such movements as the simple disengage.

Probably the most common point control drill that I teach is a partner drill.
1 partner will wield a blunt practice blade with a safe tip, or the equivalent.
The other partner will be unarmed.

Have the partners stand at such a distance that the armed partner can strike the outstretched hand of the unarmed partner with a thrust without footwork. Have them repeat this several times till they can consistently strike the outstretched palm. Then increase the distance to where footwork is required.

Then start moving the target. Have the unarmed partner put the hand in a different place each time.

Then, when they are getting pretty good at this, have the unarmed partner splay their hand and have the armed partner aim for particular fingers. Close the fingers once they are hit to make the target even smaller.



We utilize three target drills for thrusting;

1. a 2" black dot on a piece of plywood. The student strikes at the target until they can hit it repeatedly.
2. A tennis ball on a string.
3. A small (1") washer hung from a string.

We also do partner drills to get the student to target openings while the target is actively trying to parry or block his strike. All partner drills are done with wooden weapons with padding tapped to the striking surface.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Weapons All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


< Advertising - Contact - Disclosure Policy - Staff - User Guidelines >