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ChpsahoySE
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 14 Oct 2020
Posts: 13

Styles: Shorin Ryu TKD Shotokan Jujitsu Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:23 am    Post subject: Divisions within the same Okinawan lineage? Reply with quote

Hi am new here and wanted to start the topic by saying One of the Black belt I hold is in Matsumura Shorin Ryu. I never paid attention or cared much for its exact history of lineage When I was actively training it. Recently, As I started researching the family tree, I was shocked at the bickering and bad mouthing I noticed on different websites or associations coming from the respected heads of the school (some of these men Are well into their 70’s). It’s phrases such as “so and so doesn’t know real Matsumura!” “You only trained with Sokan x amount of times tops!” “he didn’t train that much with Hohan Sokan!” “That guy is a fraud!!” It’s astonishing To say the least..

My simple question is “what gives??”

can anyone explain how or what happened to cause the divisions and different styles within this same lineage?
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ChpsahoySE
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 14 Oct 2020
Posts: 13

Styles: Shorin Ryu TKD Shotokan Jujitsu Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My previous Matsumura teacher learned under Barry Holck and another teacher through Nobuichi Oyakawa. Both styles were very solid and practical IMO. Any other Matsumura stylists here that have a opinion on lineages?
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wildbourgman
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Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 171
Location: Louisiana
Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I know one of the people that you are speaking of in the first comment. Other than the thousands of word he has posted disparaging his contemporaries he does have some really good insight into a certain timeframe of Matsumura seito.

I've heard some of this stuff from others too and its just family squabbling to me.

Some of it is that these folks seem to have an orthodoxy akin to religion. I've seen this with Shotokan too. Anyone that differs from what Hohan Soken taught is instantly thought of as an apostate. I think they should look at the Shu Ha Ri concept. That's what I see happening to my sector of the Matsumura group and its been happening for generations. Some of the latest variations are really good and some of the others not so much, but overall I'm going to make out of my journey what I want.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15162
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Divisions within the same lineage aren't anything new or surprising, not at all. Perhaps I'm bitter, but ego and money seems to me the root of all possible evils. Not everyone can be in charge of everything, no matter what they might think. Human beings don't get along right off the bat or it festers until scratching no longer serves a purpose across the board.

Splinters and division can't always to avoided, and oftentimes, it serves for the good of all concerned. Go or stay or this or that...pick one and go with it. Lineage division will never end as long as human beings are involved.

Imho.



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Wastelander
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2493
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sort of thing happens FREQUENTLY in traditional martial arts after a major figure in the style passes away. Maybe they were the founder of the style, or the head of the organization, or the son of somebody notable, but when they die, it's pretty much inevitable. Everyone wants to stand on the shoulders of that major figure, and they believe there is only room for one person to do that, so they have to discredit others and make themselves out to be the "most righteous successor," so to speak.
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Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu | 2010-Present: Nidan | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker, Adrian Rivera
Karate Obsession | Arizona Practical Karate
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aurik
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Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 146
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are no less than a dozen different Uechi-Ryu organizations worldwide. My understanding is the first major split happened when Kanbun Uechi died (at the time, it was known as Pangai-Noon Kung-Fu). Then after his son, Kanei Uechi died, another split occurred. Each organization is generally run by a 9th degree or 10th degree, and they all have slightly different ways of doing things.

All Uechi-Ryu organizations usually teach the same 3 original kata, Sanchin, Seisan, and Sanseiryu. Most also teach the 5 kata derived from the originals, Kanshiwa, Kanshu, Seichin, Seiryu, and Kanchin. However at least one organization teaches Kanshu by its original name, "Daini Seisan" aka "second seisan" or "half seisan". They also teach the same junbi undo (warmup exercises) and hojo undo (accessory exercises).

The major place organizations differ is in the bunkai. Most organizations have defined bunkai for Kanshiwa and Seisan, as these were formalized by Kanmei Uechi. However, not all organizations have formal bunkai for the bridging katas. For example, when I studied with another organization last summer, they didn't have a formal bunkai for Kanshu.

Also, while the general pattern for each kata may be the same across organizations, some of the specifics differ, and many of these specifics act as a "signature" to identify which lineage a student has learned from.

I've had the privilege to train with several different high-ranking instructors from different organizations -- I've not yet experienced a "our way is right and yours is wrong". Of course, I've always gone into the situations with the understanding that other organizations/instructors will teach things slightly differently. Each of these situations I've taken as an opportunity to learn new ways of doing things and incorporate them into my own karate.
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5th kyu Shuri-Ryu, 4th kyu Judo, 3rd kyu Uechi-Ryu
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1830

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The particular lineage I belong to has several “main dojo’s”. One in Okinawa, two on mainlaind Japan, one in USA and two in Europe! The chief instructor of each one are all direct students of the same instructor who approved each one before he passed away in 2010.

This makes things very complicated for students of these instructors if they want to open a dojo. If a direct student of the mainland Japan instructor moved to North America or Europe and wanted to start teaching, there could be problems because the same style and organization are already represented there.
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wildbourgman
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Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 171
Location: Louisiana
Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've researched some of this on my own and had discussions with higher ranking students about some of the issues in our lineage.

The main legitimate issues seem to be.

1. Changes made to the style.
2. People claiming rank that they may not have completely deserved or earned on the floor.
3. Money issues.
4. Multiple claims of sole possession of the style after Hohan Soken died..

Personally I think this is sad and I wish they could come together at least periodically and get over this. For example I would love to see a once every 4 or 5 year camp of the Matsumura Seito offshoots.

Then again there are some issues such as complete charlatans trying to claim or exaggerate connections to Hohan Soken that never existed or barely existed. I heard there are multiple people who received Certificates of Attendance to seminars or camps that turn the certificate or claimed it was a rank that they tested for.
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